Extended HC History

This has been discussed in the shoutbox for the past week or so, and suggested for months (if not years). Hyrule Castle's history and lore will be vastly expanded. My suggestions to expand the history of the HC universe are located in the following document: Click for it.

Major changes include...
1. Few events are given specific dates, unlike the current timeline. This would make it more plausible to add "current events" to the world's collective history.

2. Most events which occurred prior to the invasion of Ganon have been put on a more grand and realistic scale, and arranged in a way that hopefully feels more natural and logical.

3. Instead of Snowhead and Woodfall abruptly appearing because of a snowstorm, they--and the races which inhabit them--would have existed as part of Hyrule for millenia.

4. The Gerudo race has a significantly darker past, tied to Ganondorf. Oh, yes, and Ganon has his own past as well.

5. Five new races--Zuna, Anouki, Hinox, Vire, and Parella--are specifically mentioned at one or more points. With the likely exception of the legless Parella, I think it's plausible that these races could become officially playable if players desired to use them.

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I should mention: none of this is currently set in stone. I am posting the document in suggestions to hear any and all possible feedback, so please speak your mind. I will be willing to add, remove, or alter just about anything if you either: (a) have a compelling argument which convinces me in its own right, or (b) gain support of several people who all agree that the change should be made (even if I personally don't agree). Of course, if the majority of you think nothing should change, then I'd have to cede to that argument as well.

I intend to give this at least a month before formally establishing anything. In the mean time, please let me know what you think!

(...I can't believe that doc is more than 20 pages.)

Responses have been limited to the shoutbox, but so far this suggestion has received nothing but approval. I would still like to hear from anyone who has yet to provide his or her input, though.

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I'm also tacking on a few additions to this suggestion. The following proposals were discussed in the shoutbox, and everyone seemed to be in agreement at the time.

1. Tiny Fairy becomes its own playable race, instead of being a special type of Unusual Companion. It will be an Uncommon Race.

2. A Kokiri (and only a Kokiri) may get a free Fairy Companion as one of their perks, but this fairy has no treasures and isn't treated as its own character. Effectively, this racial perk is unchanged, but can no longer be bought in its own right.

3. An Uncommon Race License costs 50 rupees for Regulars, and is free for Veterans. An Elite Race License costs 100r regardless of rank.

4. An Unusual Character costs 50 rupees.​

Overall, I'm really impressed by the level of detail in this write-up. I feel that it really fleshes out the HC world without coming across as too restrictive to player freedom. Good job, Guy! It's a bit late, so I'm just gonna give some first impressions, as well as feedback on the questions you've asked in both the thread and document itself; I might do a follow-up post later on with more thoughts on the finer details of this new lore. Please excuse any half-coherent thoughts, given the hour.

Starting with the questions/points raised in this thread:

I like this idea a lot, simply because specific dates can sometimes mess with a character's biography, especially if a past event needs to be revisited and changed for whatever reason. This will help cut down on incongruities as well as allowing a player to be as specific as they want. Plus, it makes it easier to add more events to the timeline, like you said.

Indeed, and it looks good to me~

This is definitely an improvement over what we have now. In retrospect, a snowstorm suddenly revealing a mountain is pretty silly.

For the most part, I really like what you've done with the Gerudo. It always made no sense to me how the Gerudo are distrusted in the current incarnation of the lore because "strong women are scary," despite the fact that the Hylians' patron deities are all female and the Gerudo allowed countless survivors from the South to take refuge in their caves. Hell, the Gerudo are even aiding Hyrule's armies now. You'd think they'd be more grateful. By tying the Gerudo to slavery and wars of conquest, their fearsome reputation feels a lot more justified.

The only slight issue I have is that the Gerudo's bid for domination feels a bit too recent to me, even at 50 to 100 years ago. Some characters could even be alive back then. And while the idea of a grizzled old Hylian/Gerudo/Deku who saw that war could be a neat character, I kinda like the idea that it happened so long ago that the Gerudo are still suffering for the mistakes of their ancestors, even as they themselves have changed. Of course, it's not too big a deal to me, just a thought.

Would have to go through these on a case-by-case basis... At a glance, yes to Zuna and Anouki, maybe to Hinox, and no to Vire and Parella. Zuna and Anouki seem fine as races, Hinox and Parella could be, but I think they might work better as Unusual Characters, especially Parella. Vires always struck me as evil monsters created by Ganon, so I'm not sure how suitable they are as player characters. At the very least, I would definitely make Zuna a playable race, given their role as Gerudo slaves in the proposed lore.

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Moving on to the questions posed in the document itself:

I personally think Gerudo Desert is fine, vanilla as it is. The others don't roll off the tongue, for me.

I much prefer the latter. Not only does it have a canon precedent, but even in real life we have terms that aren't 100% accurate. A prairie dog is not actually a dog, for instance. In a way, it feels more "real" in-universe for the latter names to be used, as it could result in amusing situations like a bewildered Hylian meeting a "Sea Zora" who has never set foot near the ocean.

Plus, if I'm gonna nitpick, "Blue Zora" isn't totally accurate, either. They can have white scales, and if some games are to be believed, pinkish ones as well.

Nah, I don't feel like any of these warrant a separate page. Unless you want to dedicate an entire page to the epicness that are Miniblins <3

In all seriousness, maaaaaybe a page for River Zoras? That's the only one I think could be helpful.


Moving on to the race suggestions brought up by your second post:

Hmmm. I personally prefer them as an Unusual Companion, but I can see the merit in making them playable. I'll see what others have to say on the matter. Feels kinda funny for them to be both a racial and a race. :P

So, in a sense, the perk can only be taken by Kokiri/Great Fairies, if I'm understanding this correctly? Hmm... Not sure I like that. It's iconic for Kokiri to be sure, but... Link had a fairy. Wouldn't seem unusual for Dekus/Koroks to befriend their fellow servants of nature, either. Put me down for no, at least for now.

I'd be fine with this. 200 Rupees is a lot to amass, even if you forsake Treasures entirely. I don't have a huge opinion either way, but I'm not sure the extra PWC of Elite races is worth an extra 100 rupees.

It's a neater number than 60. I like. Puts it in the realm of a Quest Reward, too, which seems reasonable to me.


While we're on the topic of race, I actually have a few thoughts I'd like to put out there that I've had for a little while. Seems like here's the best place to bring them up.

1) I think Zora's Amphibious should be an Innate trait, not a racial perk. It seems really silly to me that the race's whole hat is locked behind a perk, especially if you compare it to Dekus, who have Water Hop as an innate racial... That feels more flimsy to me than the fish people not automatically being able to breathe underwater.

2) I get the feeling this might be a lot more controversial, but I personally think the Rito's Winged Flight perk shouldn't cost two racial slots. I recognize that being able to fly at will is a really powerful utility ability, but given that the wings replace their arms, it's not like it makes them super-overpowered in combat. What's more, like Zora's Amphibious, the Rito being able to fly is sorta their "hat," and the lore implies that most Rito who live on Dragon Roost eventually make their pilgrimmage and earn their wings. Seems odd that something so supposedly commonplace would cost two racial slots.

I would like to specify that I am NOT advocating for Winged Flight to be Innate, since a Rito born elsewhere or otherwise unable to earn their wings is a perfectly cool concept.

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Finally, I'd just like to leave some comments about a couple of things I'd like to see expanded in this new lore.

1) Although the Twili are definitely meant to be mysterious, I'd kinda like to learn more about the inner workings of the Twilight Realm, if only a little bit. I think it'd be cool if there was an inheritance dispute going on, similar to the Zant vs. Midna conflict in TP. That game vaguely implied the Twili have an elective monarchy (Zant was apparently passed over for the throne?), and a civil war could help explain a sudden influx of Twili refugees better than wacky magical experiments, especially given the Twili's skill at sorcery.

2) I think I'd like Great Fairies to be expanded on a bit more, and maybe to have their date of creation pushed back a bit. I know a lot of existing GF PCs on the site have been implied to have existed for a very long time in their bios, so them being created within the last century feels kinda iffy.

3) I'd be interested to learn more about religion in Hyrule. Specifically, since the Golden Goddesses are the ultimate creator figures, how does each race view or acknowledge them? Do Moblins, for instance, grasp the concept of Din/Nayru/Farore, or would they view them as aspects of Ganon, etc.


Phew. I did say these would be brief first impressions, didn't I? Whoopsie! Anyways, that's all I can think of off the top of my head, feel free to comment, criticize, whatever floats your boat. (Don't worry any in-depth future post by me won't be a novel)

It currently costs less for a Kokiri to make an Unusual Companion into a Fairy (a racial perk plus 60r, versus 100r for the license). For someone of C3 or higher, it costs at most 20 roops more (40 to 60 for the fairy, and another 60 for the license). The logic of "paying for them" here doesn't make much sense, unless I'm missing something...

If we never introduced new playable races based on the fact we have had them organized canonically at one point or another... well... we would have far fewer races. Darknuts, Great Fairies, Wizzrobes, Lynels, Garo, Sheikah, Poes, Picori, Twili, Lizalfos, Stalfos, Subrosians, Tokay, Moblins, Yeti, Mogma, and Kikwi would all be gone. All Elite and Uncommon races, as well as nearly half the Common races. I really don't think that's a good argument, personally.

Do you remember on Hylian Shield, whenever everyone and their mother wanted to be a Twili? Even on HC, it's the most coveted elite race license I would wager, and they only appeared in one game--and there were practically only two Twili in TP.

Let's not forget Subrosians, Tokay, Rito, Mogma, Yeti, Kikwi, Koroks, Kokiri, and Garo all only appear in one game each. Sheikah are mentioned in several games, but it's practically always just a different version of Impa (unless you count Sheik, who only disguises herself as one).

I realized I never clearly mentioned that I was intending to consider the Acheman to also be a Vire--what with their transforming into Keese and shooting magic projectiles from their faces. Considering their appearance in Adventure of Link, and Gomess' appearance in Majora's Mask, that's... six games, if we're using that metric. That's as many as Deku Scrubs, and twice as many as female Gerudo.

Again, I don't think this a good reason to discount Vires (nor Hinox). That said, I would still likely only add them if someone other than myself wanted to make a character of any of these races... and, well, I know someone seems highly interested in Vires already...

I... honestly don't really understand where you're coming from with this. It needlessly screws over Kokiri who already have Tiny Fairies, unless I'm misunderstanding your suggestion...?

The inclusion of the perk was mainly to allow those who already had a Tiny Companion to keep it as-is, instead of being forced to pay for an Uncommon Race. I'll reluctantly let you have it if someone else agrees on this point, though...

Uh. You'll note I said excluding Parella, so I agree with you on that.

The main reason Vires were considered was their ability to talk, giving them intelligence above that of mindless monsters -- though a lot of weird things talk in the handheld Capcom Zelda games, admittedly I personally don't think an evil disposition alone should rule them out. I mean, that's the thought several of the more monstrous races -- or at least it was originally when I brought up being able to play Moblins back in the day.

Hm... I'd like it if someone else could give an opinion on this. Initially I was writing the Imprisoning War to take place 100-120 years in the past, but I purposely moved it to 70-100 because I thought some characters might like to involve it in their backstories.

This has been brought up several times, and my answer is always basically the same. Amphibious is an extremely powerful racial perk to have innately, for free. It's so powerful even as a racial perk that you'd frankly be kind of silly not to take it. If they got amphibious for free in addition to three normal perks, they would easily be the most capable of the Common Races... for no reason other than it "feels flimsy."

You make the comparison to Deku Scrubs, who have Water Hop innately. This ability exists to help offset the crippling weakness of Plant Composition, which is also innate. If they failed to hop the proper distance, they would fall into the water, and probably die. If hit by a stray spark, they would likely catch flame and be apt to die.

Similarly, most innate perks--especially those of common races--usually have a slight upside and a weakness. Amphibious is hardly that. (Frankly, I think even Stone Skin shouldn't be an innate for similar reasons, even though it does impose a weakness...)

If Amphibious became an innate racial perk, I would feel the need to give Zoras only two open racial perk "slots"--but if I did that, why not just let them choose whether they have Amphibious or not?

Again, this is something that's been brought up once before, and again, it is something I strongly feel should remain the way it is--simply because it is such a powerful ability. Furthermore, unlike Zora, it's actually explitly the case that Rito have to earn their wings--and that in some cases they may not. In Wind Waker, all Rito lived on one isle--but on HC, they live across massive continents and oceans, making it all the more likely they don't make that pilgrimage.

If Rito did have Winged Flight as one perk, I'd feel the need to give it some kind of weakness it doesn't have... or, conversely, give the flightless Fokka some kind of advantage flying Rito don't have. I don't know what that weakness or advantage would even be. Increased leg strength? Nothing coming to my mind seems appropriate.

Hmm... That could be key to a future event, perhaps. Like you said, they are meant to be mysterious, so it's difficult to strike a balance. I feel similarly about Subrosians and Subrosia, as well as the denizens of the Dark World (~Hinox~).

Fair... I think I had them involved before I moved the Imprisoning War's date up. Perhaps, for now at least, the events of the Imprisoning War could just bring a few more into the world, rather than be the literal birth of the race? I'd have to think up something else for history further back. It's a little difficult to work them into the big picture, given the secretive and mysterious nature of the race.

It's funny you mention this. You may have noticed the doc begins with discussions of goddesses and myths. Part of what inspired all this, for me, was the desire to expand on them--and make pages on the library summarizing the goddesses and other major figures. The example of Moblins is something I hadn't considered, but definitely would be a good thing to include... I would feel the need to push the established timeline through before I could expand much more on the role of deities, though.

Thanks for your feedback (and praise) as usual, both of you.

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...Well... All things considered, at this point I might end up not adding the races. I'm getting surprisingly strong resistance from at least three people, though I don't really understand why. (If we can have more treasures, why not more races? It's not like their creation and maintenance expends any resources other than hours of my irreplaceable youth.) I don't like it, but, eh. We haven't heard everyone's voice yet, though, so it's still undecided.

Coincidentally, I'm surprised no one has yet mentioned anything ill of Zuna, which I personally felt to be the least viable as a race (by far) based on their canonical appearances. They're literally just green Hylian-types that live in one desert town in one game that is barely part of the main series--and all the racial perks I've thought for them have been pulled out my ass.

I approve of most of these changes, but then, I'm too recent for most of them to make a difference to me.
With Tiny Fairies, I feel like they're almost PCs anyway when made with Kokiri. They have dialogue, personality and free actions. Kokiri shouldn't be taxed for having a fairy, or suddenly the woods would be full of Kokiri Pariahs. The only cases where it should be taxed is when a) The fairy spends time away from a Kokiri that isn't plot-related (like a few posts of a thread where they're seperated by whatever) or if they're part of a buddy system with another user and are played seperately to the Kokiri.

With Hinox and Vire; who's to say they can't be PCs? Isn't the whole point of Hyrule Castle to explore the world we don't see in-game? In a magical world like Hyrule, why shouldn't there be beasts who have sentience? I mean, we allow Stalfos and Lizalfos and that, who almost never have speaking roles in-game (does anyone count when they talked in Hyrule Warriors? Is that canon here?). Why shouldn't we allow Hinox and Vire and that?

On Amphibious for Zora, why not make it innate but add a second innate perk that ups their weakness to ice and/or fire, as shown in canon? (Stupid Zora Link getting one-hit by a fireball!)
I agree with the Rito not having Winged Flight as innate, and even it being a two-slotted perk. It is a major advantage over a lot of races, although given that the Wing Tunic is so cheap it might not be worth it. It also encourages more Fokka PCs rather than OP Rito who are made just for their wings.

Overall, a spectacular job Guy! I thank thee for the hours of thy youth you have sacrificed to give us this.

When is the exam on this

I, too, would like to have the creation of Great Fairies pushed back to well before the Imprisoning War. It's not so much of an issue for Arifa, but I know that Flayre and Leskar are positively ancient compared to her- meaning that unless I'm mistaken, two thirds of the Great Fairies on-site would contradict the lore as it's presently written.

On a more selfish note thank you for sending Tiny Fairies to the Lost Woods- that justifies me using them as Autumn's guardians and masters.

I'd have to leave constructive criticism on the historical section to those of us who are more skilled at worldbuilding -as you can surmise characters are more my forte- but on the whole, I have to say it's very impressive, with a lot of substance to go off of both for near-immortal races and more normal races in terms of backstory, motivations, goals... I believe you've covered all of the current races and sub-races. However, this information may have to be incorporated into the Race pages in the Library for completeness's sake; I would be entirely willing to help out with that if necessary.

As for your questions from the document:

1). I think it would be best to name it the Desert Province. It's no longer inhabited by Gerudo, the race has been largely redeemed in the eyes of many, and it would be consistent with the other provinces.

2). River Zora and Sea Zora sounds more pleasant to my ears, although I believe HC has used 'Lake Zora' in the past as well. I'm mostly indifferent on this though, so go with your gut (or the majority) I guess.

3). I don't think separate pages are necessary- I think the dimorphism can be covered in the introductory part of the Race page and potentially in Recommended Origins.

I... honestly don't see much of a draw in playing most of the races suggested, but that's entirely a matter of personal preference and we all know I'm more into Rito and Zora anyway. However, I see no reason to deny people who want to make one as a character that option. That said, for those of you who really do want one, take the advice of someone who's made more characters than the rest of the forum can count: Consider how easy, or hard, it would be to get that character into an RP with others. Moblins, Lizalfos, Poes, and Stalfos have been named as an argument in favour of the Vire, but as someone who has a Lizalfos, it's not easy to find RPing partners for them compared to non-monster races. Whereas I can see Anouki, Zuna, and arguably Hinox depending on their flavouring and implementation, fitting into most RPs with other open-minded characters, I'm having a hard time envisioning the same thing for Vires.

In short, while I'm divided on the implementation of playable Vires, I see no reason to not implement the other races. For those of you who, much like me, don't see the draw: It's easier for us to not use an option we're given than for people who do want it to not have the option. Wonky English aside.

On the additional points:

1). I'd honestly rather prefer Tiny Fairies to remain as they are. I have an Unusual Character who is an auxiliary/Unusual Companion/mount/otherwise connected to an existing character; Cryo, as Luna's mount, who is only an Unusual Character because standard Loftwings couldn't have the explicit ice affinity I wanted him to have. However, from Cbox conversations I've gathered that this is not the expected/usual state of things with Unusual Characters. As such, I think it's perfectly viable to just make a Tiny Fairy character without a Kokiri/other charge with the system currently in place. Let's not make things more complicated than they need to be- especially since you have plenty of work as is.

2). Not sure about removing the perk for non-Kokiri characters. While it's true that Link has had Fairies in various incarnations, all of those companions were temporary as mandated by the circumstances of the plot. So one could just as easily argue there's no true canon precedent. That said, if the Fairy is not given treasures and not put into RPs on its own, why not allow characters to have one? I mean even without the perk it's just as easy to make an Unusual Character fairy for your character, so... removing the perk would serve no real purpose, unless I'm missing something. Which is entirely possible mind you.

3). The price change doesn't affect me since I'm a Veteran, so my opinion may be irrelevant here. That said, I'm in favour- 200 is incredibly lofty even when you COMPLETELY dedicate yourself to it. 100 is much more manageable.

4). This would make an Unusual Character basically require a one-time Uncommon Race license. I'm down.

I think that's all for now. Sorry I can't say anything more sensible on the topic of the history- on the whole it just looks really good and I love how you've incorporated the completed plot threads.

Amen to that.

I’ll be the first to shamefully put my hand up and admit that I opened the document yes, scrolled through it yes, but…there is faaaar too much for me to read straight off the bat. It was very overwhelming and packed with so much (mostly new?) information that I just skimmed. I’ll definitely bear it in mind for when I’ve got a spare hour+ however. It’s awesome to see a site with this much thought having gone into it!


Races:
Honestly I have no attachment to any of these. Heck, the only one I’ve ever even heard of is the Parella; the rest I had to google. I much highly prefer playing races which I’ve at least interacted with in-game (which is pretty much anything from OoT onwards, excluding portable games), yet in saying that just because it’s highly likely that I won’t play as them doesn’t mean I’m going to stop anyone else from doing so. I actually think the amount freedom HC has is pretty damn attractive.


Fairies:
…Ok, maybe I’m just missing something here and am being a really dumb newb’, but why not? Have them as their own playable race I mean.

There’s Navi, Tatl and Tael for instance who seem perfectly capable of being just…themselves, as a character in their own right. Being limited to just healing magic or simply just magic which isn’t offensive doesn’t put me off the idea. It’s nice to give a race some identity, strengths and weaknesses: it makes it more fun to choose, in my opinion at least. I also think it makes sense for them to be more ‘reachable’ for members than Great Fairies.

A Kokiri having the opportunity to get a free fairy companion is completely fine by me too. Having grown up on OoT it feels like almost a no-brainer to me. Though companions in general just really bug me for some reason, but then maybe that’s because I’ve just had subpar experiences with people who have some elsewhere. From my point of view it takes away from the quality and depth of the actual main character, but let’s not go there!


Amphibious:
I agree with Darth, this should be innate.

I SUPPOSE it can be viewed as very powerful but they are basically fish. Every time I think of a Zora I think of water and them swimming it, heck even living in it. That’s not to say that they should be immune to drowning (even us humans choke!) but it should be a natural ability.

If the power annoys you that much then just give the Zoras a side-effect/weakness, from the ones Ink suggested to things such as…not being able to stay away from water too long, being awful in dry, hot climates (deserts) etc. It makes perfect sense to include cannon things like the weakness to fire.

Honestly, the more drastic ups and downs a race has the more attractive it makes it. Races SHOULD be different, not just in appearance but in their abilities and weaknesses. It’s what sets them apart and makes them interesting. I never want to play an all-rounder.


Winged Flight:
I’m also with Darth on this one. I agree with everything said.

Birds can fly, fish can live in water: it’s as simple as that to me. Again, I like them being unbalanced, makes it more fun to choose a race. Perhaps as a weakness Rito are incredibly light or fragile? Maybe their endurance (or Power, if that’s the right one?) locks at a certain number? Maybe wind currents play a massive effect on how they fly? Or simply just limit how far and for how long they can fly?

I don’t mind it not being innate, since they do go through the whole ordeal of earning their scale in the first place. I’ve actually toyed with the idea of a Rito who can’t fly for some years now.


Misc:
I haven’t read the details, but by the sound of things a darker history for the Gerudo sounds awesome. It makes sense and seems to fit into everything else very nicely.
As for the cheaper race licenses, when do I become a Regular? It’s great to know that some of my goals will be a lot more reachable though. I nearly didn’t make my Faust Dragomir because I was going to wait until I got a Sheikah license but then impatience happened.

I didn’t actually realise until just now that Snowhead and Woodfall appeared out of a snowstorm…

I like all the names for the Old Kingdom/Gerudo Kingdom. They’re all relevant and I know exactly what they’re talking about. I’m still actually getting to grips with remembering all the names on the map here and what’s where and why etc.

River Zora and Sea Zora, definitely. Simply because that’s just what I’m used to!

What on earth is a Fokka?! I don’t think significant dimorphism warrants a whole new page but not because of the reasons many of you may think. I’d like to go all out and really base some Zora off different species of fish/water-dwelling creatures, properly playing with their appearance and abilities, but the more you ‘lock stuff down’ the…more hesitant I am to play around with those ideas? I’m not even sure if that sort of thing is allowed here? I know Ink has already tread a bit on that territory so I’m guessing it’s ok.




Aaaaaaaaand that’s all I have for now! I apologise for the huge mass of opinionated mess that this all is but I wanted to at least show my interest in what’s been going on! Please don't hate me too much.

I'm going to be writing this post entirely in response to other people's comments right now. I might write a more exhaustive analysis of the lore later, since I am one of the worldbuilding people and should probably throw in my two-cents there at some point.

Firstly, the topic of races. I do not think "we've never seen them organize" is a good argument here, for the same reasons stated by Guy. A few of the ones he listed as getting invalidated by that argument I think had enough civilization to qualify as organize, buuuuuut several don't. Neither is the argument that it would be difficult to find ways to shoehorn them into RPs particularly useful, I think. By the same argument, we may as well delete all the "evil" races, especially the Skull Kids, who aren't in much better of a position.

Ultimately I think this one comes down to matters of variety, not viability or logic. If people are willing to write the races up, then someone is going to play them at some point. We don't actually lose anything by adding them, even if no one uses them immediately, because eventually they'll appeal to someone. And if the price on uncommons comes down, that becomes a lot more appealing a lot more quickly. My vote is add all four races.

(as a sidenote, once this is all finalized, I can merge it into the existing race pages. It'd take me, like, two hours to do the entire roster, because I'd just be translating things from the timeline to the history sections. We may want to consider making history and culture separate headings, though, to account for the extended history.)
Re: Fairies: I think the thing people are overlooking here is that reducing the uncommon race price and the UC price would completely devalue the fairy companion perk anyway. The only way to get a better price here is to have C5. At C4 you're paying the same price to have a fairy that can do nothing whatsoever, and below that you're just losing money. At the same time, fairies are not so uncommon that making them reliant on UC status makes a great deal of sense, and all the arguments against making them PCs apply to the Picori as well, which are already PCs.

To Cloud's argument in particular- HC does not follow canon. Frankly, it doesn't matter what we've seen them do, because AFAIK we've never seen Darknuts, Lynels, Moblins, Stalfos, or Lizalfos talk, we've never seen Great Fairies do nearly any of what they do here, 90% of the races had no culture or civilization to begin with, and the entire history of the site is completely non-canon. Hell, this applies to the Vire too. Most of these races have demonstrated no special abilities whatsoever, while fairies at least are shown healing people.

In short, there's worse than no point in keeping the companion perk as-is while making the other changes, and the arguments against changing it don't make any more sense than they purport fairies as PCs make. I think it makes more sense to make the uncommmons, or at least UCs. Besides which- BP, referring to your argument in particular- we're not removing Fairy Companions from other races here. We're making it cheaper for most characters to get it and giving them free perks to go with it. More than anything, we're removing the ability of other races to start with it, which no one was doing anyway, and the bonuses are rather tangible.

My vote is to make them UCs or uncommons, and retain the stock companion perk only for Kokiri and Great Fairies, and only at creation.

EDIT: We were talking in the shoutbox and it occurred to me we could solve this problem way easier by addressing the weird pricing on fairy companion. If we make it a fixed cost Lowest/Low treasure, with the option of having a UC fairy for more money, not the same price, then nothing gets devalued and the companion treasure still makes sense. I change my vote to this proposal.

Amphibious and Winged Flight: Ehhhhhh I don't really agree with either of these being OPd. They're mobility perks, more than anything. Guy, you say they're overpowered as innates, but you don't say why. There's like three or four ways to emulate either, and they have few combat uses unless you have other perks to compliment them. Breathing underwater doesn't give you the ability, on its own, to fight underwater, or even to swim well. The only way to used Winged Flight offensively is with something like Plummeting Blade, which is just as powerful with a flightless character as without.

If you must give them a weakness, make Amphibious come with a weakness to fire and winged flight with a weakness to electricity. But, honestly, I don't see the need. I vote to make both perks innate.

Dimorphism: This one needs to be addressed on a case-by-case basis. River Zora and Sea Zora differ in little more than appearance and use the same perks. Blins have a lot of differences, sure, but there's a clear progression involved, and they're capable of cross breeding. The only one I think needs a separate page would be the Fokka, if we're adding them. The only similarity between them and Rito is that they're avian; they only appear in one game and nothing about that appearance makes them resemble Rito. We'd be better off basing them on the Hyrule: Total War Fokka than hanging them off the Rito or Wizzrobes, I think, and either way I think they need their own page.

(NVM about the Fokka, I realized I missed something regarding them in the timeline document.)

I vote to leave most races as-is, but separate out the Fokka if they're added. (And let's use River/Sea Zora for names too while we're at it.)

I'm going to spend a bit of time going over the proposed lore from an objective point of view and post my opinion on that later, as well as pages for the Anouki and Zuna.

Mythical Origins
Patron Deities:
For the most part, this is good, but I strenuously object to identifying male Gerudo as god-kings. That turns an obviously female dominated race into one of the most bizarre patriarchies ever, and it smacks of misogynism from multiple directions. Why does the one predominately female race need a male god and undisputed, reincarnating king? Seriously? I think we should use the Desert Goddess which can be inferred from the Spirit Temple in OoT instead.

Early History
The passage on the Rito, Tokay, and Parella could use some minor edits. The Tokay are amphibians, not reptilians, and there's nothing here to indicated that it's referring to the *Zora* when referencing the amphibious race, either. The final sentence also erroneously states these races all arose from an amphibious race, rather than an aquatic one.

Maybe make the Sheikah a subspecies with shadowy origins rather than explicitly a super soldier experiment? That, I think, clashes with existing lore and setting a bit too much.

The origins of the Gerudo clash heavily with their entry in the Mythical Origins section. If they're going to have a patron deity, they really can't be an artificial race created untold years after everything else. I think this should maybe be changed so that either the Gerudo didn't arise from the ashes of the Old Kingdom or they don't have a patron deity at all, except Hylia by technicality. The origins of the Hylian race could also be shifted instead- to, Holodrum or Labrynna instead, maybe, with the Old Kingdom getting a name change and going to the Gerudo and Lizalfos. In this case, the origins of the Gerudo could mostly be preserved as is, with minor changes to the bit about how the Gerudo War started, and elimination of references to their being related to Hylians at all.

Recent History
If Rolling Ridge is getting moved where it belongs in Holodrum, the map needs updating. So does the Goron page, but most race pages are going to need that anyway and I was already planning to do that when things are finalized. This is just something to keep in mind.

The Gerudo explorers paragraph- is that supposed to say Western Caves or Eastern Caves? If it's Western, a few things will need to be changed elsewhere to account for it.

If the map is getting expanded to include Labrynna and Holodrum, it might make sense to relocate Crescent Island closer to Labrynna to account for their discovery of it, unless Labrynna is due south of it or something. Which might be weird, since they'd have apparently discovered Labrynna by bypassing Crescent Island entirely.

Imprisoning War
I like the timeline placement of this one, incidentally. I know a few people have expressed other opinions, but I think it makes a certain amount of sense. One could almost draw a parallel here between this and, say, World Wars I & II. A lot of wars in human history, really. And the surviving Gerudo seventy years later who could have fought in the war would be 90+ years old, so the majority of their race is indeed paying for not their own sins, but the sins of their ancestors, as someone brought up.

If the Sheikah were employed mostly as spies and special agents, how were they so easily gathered up and wiped out?

Why did the various world powers split the way they did? Some context for those choices would be nice here, I think. As it is, there's not much reason for the Gorons, Rito, or Mogma to side with Southern Hyrule.

To clarify, were the attacks by the Gerudo on Nabooru and Saria committed by sea?

Re: Fairies, it might make more sense to specify they created *more* fairies for that purpose, instead of creating them wholesale, especially if we're saying the Great Fairy Queen might exist already. Same with Great Fairies in general- I think they should become more common, not appear entirely then and there.

Also, what makes Wild Province so undesirable to everyone else?

Modern History
Was Ordon Village hit by Ganon? If not, why did he ignore it? And why bypass Mogma Ridge, an allied territory of Hyrule?

If the Gorons have settlements elsewhere, it would make sense to mention some of them fleeing to those instead of just into Lanayru.

We talked about this the other day, but currently it's Ruto that was retaken. I understand the arguments in favor of changing that to Kasuto, I just want to be clear that we are in fact changing that detail.

Making the Subrosian Glacier part of Holodrum might require some alterations to the map as well, unless we're going to rename that part of the map "Isle of Frost" and just assume the glacier is in Holodrum from here on out. Either way is fine.

How do the people of Hyrule know who the Twili are? Do they look the same as they did in the Interloper War? If so, does that mean the Twili existed in Hyrule as a separate race originally?

On an unrelated note, we're mentioning a lot of NPCs here that don't have any mention in the library as is and might not be familiar to newer members, including me. I'd suggest adding library pages for Impa, Onox, Mahirid, and Veran.

Thanks. I'm... really glad there aren't statistics for things like that.

Don't worry, the doc is the long version. Everything was carefully crafted so that there was little you really need to know, but plenty of information if you want to know. When I implement some kind of "history" page on the library, it would have a Summary section for sure.

Excluding lore on your own race (which would be on its race page), all that's really necessary to know can be summed up accordingly:

"About a century ago, the Imprisoning War was fought, which lead to the extermination of the Gerudo Kingdom, and eventually caused the Hyrulean Kingdom to be broken up into eight self-governing provinces.

Twenty years ago, Ganon abruptly invaded Hyrule from the south, with the help of a monstrous army from the Dark World. He quickly conquering Eldin Province / Southern Hyrule, but his invasion abruptly came to a halt, and the war has been at a stalement ever since. Hyrule, particularly the southern region, is still swarming with Ganon's monsters."

At this point... I have at most one person who vocally agrees with me about Winged Flight and Amphibious. I dislike it, but I guess I'll have to give in and change those accordingly.

If Zora gain Amphibious as an Innate perk, however, then they would need some kind of drawback. (At least everyone seems able to agree on that.) Every innate perk imposes a drawback. The most logical would be a Fire Weakness, as this is canonically the case with Sea Zora in Majora's Mask. Sinistrari's suggestion on water reliance seems to make a lot of sense too, as--with the exception of Zora Link--canon Zoras are almost never found beyond a shore.

I've been thinking about race dimorphism, more. River Zora and Sea Zora should be separate, as their culture and history both in canon and especially on HC are very different. They literally hate each other and live in different cities. River Zora are practically considered monstrous by most Hyruleans, whereas Sea Zora are their closest ally. The more I think about it, the more I imagine any given Sea or River Zora would hate to know they were put in the same category like this...

...which is kind of an amusing thought.

...

I mentioned this in the shoutbox earlier, but there's a weird consequence of adding a Fire Weakness to the Zora race as a whole. Canonically, Sea Zora are weak to fire, so that makes sense. Canonically, River Zora always use Fireballs as their primary form of attack. It doesn't make much sense for both versions of the race to have both Fire Weakness innately and Fire as a racial perk. This is all the more reason they should be split, and given slightly different racial perks as well.

...

Almost everyone (except me) seems to be agreeing that Winged Flight should only occupy one slot. At the very least, I think the basic perk should have limitations... such as being unable to fly more than a mile, or above certain speeds. An augment, Empowered Flight, could allow for the sorts of distances seen in Wind Waker. (Perhaps Empowered Flight could be a racial perk for Rito in its own right?)

...

Regardless of how things changed, I'll have to invoke the "grandfathered-in" clause as usual with race changes. That is, "You're free to change your character to meet current standards. However, if the character was already approved, you don't need to change anything unless you feel like doing so. "

Alright, I'll have to push it back somehow... I would like some input on the owners of those characters as to what would make sense for them. Great Fairies are magically created, so it seems at least something would have first created them for a reason -- Deku Tree, Fairy Queen, or otherwise. It's just a matter of who, when, and why.

*coughhylianlovercough*

Back on Hylian Shield, my favorite character to play was a Stalfos who was disliked by Stalfos, and disliked by Hylians, but wanted to be a righteous hero. He's actually what inspired me to bring more focus into monstrous races on HC.

I... find it honestly disturbing that at least two people seem to think both Hinox and Vire are less viable as races than a race which has no legs and likely can't even breathe air. Like. Really. WTF? Am I going crazy?

The main purpose behind Unusual Characters, at least when I first made it, was to enable people to give more characterization to animal-esque characters like Loftwings, horses, Dodongos, Keese, and the like. Later on, Fairy Companions were tacked on, which I regret. That led towards the inclusion of "hey why not use this for everything," which I also regret. (Being able to effectively make your own fully-functioning humanoid race shouldn't be cheaper than an Elite Race, in my opinion.)

As I highlighted earlier in my post, the two Zoras--to me at least--are very different, and in my eyes more worthy of separate pages than any other dimorphic race.

In all fairness, I was using "Fokka" as a term to describe what might happen to Rito who forgo Valoo, are shunned as a result, and (in part) are conscripted into Ganon's army. Bird-people need to be lightweight to fly, but if they're forced to stand, walk, and run their entire lives, they could feasibly become incredible jumpers--like Fokka. If they were conscripted into an army like Ganon's, they would likely gain weaponry and armor--like Fokka.

Tbh it just seemed better than "Permanently Flightless Rito" and conveniently had something almost exactly like what I was imagining already in canon. I'm not trying to vie for their inclusion or not with this post, just thought I would explain my rationale.

(I mean, even if they're cool and make a convenient explanation for flightless Rito, they're so obscure they don't even have an official English name. )

...

On a similar note, I realized I made a typo earlier regarding race dimorphism. One of the examples I asked about was to be Wizzrobes/Mago, not Wizzrobes/Fokka. Cata helped establish non-avian wizzrobes as a separate entity and, much like Fokka, I thought it would be wise to adapt a creature name from canon that seemed to fit--Mago, in this case.

The arguments against this seem to be, in order:

1. "You should have to pay for them." I mean, you still would. Their price wouldn't be much different.

2. "I prefer them to not have to write out a bio for my tiny fairy." I hope the next suggestion fixes this? You keep your fairy, but don't need to write a bio.

3. "Changing the system makes it more complex." Ironically, part of what motivated this suggestion from me was to simplify things. If a newbie wants to play a Tiny Fairy or have a Tiny Fairy character, it's easier to explain "That's an uncommon race just like [insert example]," than to go into the nuances of first getting the Fairy Companion treasure and then turning it into the admittedly quirky Unusual Companion.

I suggested this primarily because almost every Kokiri gets this perk (I mean it's why you play a Kokiri in many cases), and didn't want to shaft them out of it.

If you're going to shell out 50 rupees for a Fairy Companion, I was thinking you might as well just shell out the 50 rupees for a Tiny Fairy License. However, Blonde Panther brought up a good point. Some people don't want to write out an entire character sheet for an entity that will be effectively as simple as Navi or Lexi.

So, I would withdraw #2 for this reason, and instead replace it with the following:
2a. A Fairy Companion can be gained for a set cost of 50 rupees. (A Kokiri may instead gain it as one of their racial perks.) A Fairy Companion does not necessitate its own character sheet.

2b. Acquiring the Fairy Companion treasure also grants you the Tiny Fairy License as a bonus, allowing you to create a Tiny Fairy character in the future if you desire it. (You can also choose to formally turn your Fairy Companion into a full-fledged Tiny Fairy character at any point, using the license.)

This would enable a Tiny Fairy to be acquired by anyone instead of just Kokiri or GFs. Simultaneously, anyone who wanted to not write a bio for mere a smol Fairy Companion would not be required to do so.

Everyone seems to agree about these, at least.

Jarin told me he likes Haunted Wasteland.
Darth prefers Gerudo Desert.
Blondie said she likes Desert Province.
Sinistrari likes all of them.

...

I will say I think "Desert Province" is completely erroneous. The Hyrule mainland was split into provinces after the war. The desert region in question is a completely different continent, like Labrynna or Holodrum. I think calling it a "province" would only lead to confusion. I wish I hadn't even suggested that as an option.

To me, Gerudo Desert is viable as because it is likely still thought of as the ruins of the Gerudo Kingdom. Calling it something else based on its current inhabitants is... well, frankly, no one cares about them.

To me, Haunted Wasteland is viable for those who live there, and see it for what it really is: a wasteland riddled with monsters and ghosts, a horrid and disturbing shell of what was once a powerful kingdom.

In either case, the page on the region will likely list both titles. E.g., "Samasa Desert, also known as the Desert of Doubt, is a shitty place." The question here is which name goes on the map,

Literally every answer so far has been for River Zora and Sea Zora. So. Yeah.

Response on this has been... mixed. Three people have suggested to forget it entirely, more or less. Two have suggested we take each example into further consideration.

I feel most strongly about Sea Zora and River Zora, for reasons I mentioned earlier. Violently different cultures, different histories connected by conflict, different appearances, and even different racial perks. Excluding a couple overlapping perks, they're as different as Hylians and Gerudo, if not more so. These should definitely be separate,

Rito and Fokka would likely have different racial perks as well. Rito would have Winged Flight, whereas Fokka would have perks like Jump and Power Beam. That's not to mention the discrimination against Fokka would make their culture significantly different, to the point summarizing both in the same section is a bit weird. I agree with Cata in that these should be separate.

Wizzrobes and Mago share all the same racial perks. Their culture is divided, but I don't think Mago society is sufficiently complex in its own right. In this case, I think it's fair the two forms remain together one page. (I mostly just want some kind of term better than "non-avian wizzrobe.")

Moblins... Moblins are a strange case. It's difficult to imagine a fat Common Moblin using Wall-Walking as easily as a Miniblin. Simultaneously, it's weird to imagine Miniblins using racial perks meant for its larger relatives. There is some incentive However, unlike all of the other instances, all forms of Moblins share a very common culture and history, and it makes sense for them to live together. The dilemma here is whether or not separate pages should be made solely for the purpose of its racial perks. Unless race dimorphism suddenly gets a lot of support, they'll probably remain together as well.

Gonna respond to a few points that have been raised in the thread since my last post.

I actually misunderstood the original point, so I withdraw my comment on this. Instead, I change my vote to what Cat has suggested: Decreasing the cost of Fairy Companion as a treasure and making Tiny Fairies UCs.

Darn things being lost in translation from the cbox to this thread. X_X

In fairness, you said "with the likely exception of," implying the possibility you would be willing to consider otherwise. I was just throwing in my hat to agree with you that the Parella wouldn't really fit as a main race. You want opinions, you get 'em.

Regarding Vires... If the community really, really wants them, all the power to them. That said, I think they're kinda iffy as a player race and much better suited as UCs. While I don't necessarily agree with Clooby that a race needs to be shown as "organized" to be made playable, I do think that the fact that races like Moblins, Darknuts, and Lizalfos use weapons and armour in their batles against Link allows us to infer that they must have some kind of culture. Heck, I feel like we can infer more about the Garo and Zunas than we can the Vires. Let me put it this way: I had to look up what Zunas were, but I've played/watched all the games with Vires in them. I still feel like I know more about the Zuna than I do Vires. Vires just seem like monsters, and not the Monster Village kind.

A bit nitpicky, but this is technically incorrect. Moblins have had speaking roles in both Oracle games, LA, and TP. Stalfos have spoken in LA and MM. If you count HW, Lizalfos and Darknuts can talk, too.

Still, the general sentiment seems to be that Vires should be made playable, in which case the issue becomes helping them fit into the setting. Given that the Vampirism treasure's page suggests that Vires can cause creatures to contract it, I think it might be interesting to explore their role as the progenitors of vampires, though that opens its own can of worms.

Really, Guy, if it came down to "none of the new races" or "all of the new races," I'd sooner have all of them. I do like variety in character options. Like I said before, I really like how the Zuna have been incorporated into the new lore, and it feels like it would be a crime NOT to make them playable, given their sentience and status as slaves to one of the more prominent races in the lore.

Fair enough. I do agree that involving the Imprisoning War in character backstories could be really interesting. My concern is more that if it's 'relatively' recent, it might clash a bit with some PCs' attitudes toward Gerudo that have previously been expressed in threads. I just want to keep things consistent, to make the transition more smooth.

I was actually prepared to concede this point, since you do raise a valid argument that even many Dragon Roost Rito might not seek Valoo's blessing. However, more people than I thought have argued in my favour, so it might be best to put this one up for a community vote, or something.

This one, though, I'm gonna have to disagree on. I just don't think the argument that Amphibious is OP holds any water, if you'll pardon the pun. Cat's already made half of my counterargument for me, in that Amphibious doesn't allow you to magically ignore underwater physics, nor does it protect you from water damage. Furthermore, there are at least three treasures that not only replicate Amphibious' effects, but actually improve upon them by making you largely resistant to water-aligned attacks. Two of these, the Mermaid Suit and Zora Tunic, are only marginally more expensive than Amphibious at P5, costing 40 rupees to Amphibious' 30. Even at P4, that's still within Quest Reward range. The third, Silver Scales, is actually cheaper, at 20 rupees, with potentially no additional charge if you're an Outfitter or can find one willing to craft for free.

On a more meta level, I really think you're overhyping Amphibious' usefulness. All it does is allow you to breathe underwater. In real life, this would certainly be an amazing skill, but on a forum RP it's only situationally useful. How often is underwater adventuring even a thing? It's not very practical unless the entire group is kitted out for it, and the number of threads on the Eastern Sea board seems to support my argument. Sure, there are plenty of water-themed dungeons, but they aren't the majority. But even if we focus on water-themed dungeons, I still don't think it's overpowered, because again, Amphibious doesn't help you fight better underwater, it just keeps you from drowning.

And lastly, from a lore perspective it doesn't make a lot of sense for Zoras to not be innately Amphibious. Presumably the majority of Zoras live most of their lives underwater, and they're literally born as tadpoles that die if you take them out of water.

Now, with all that said, I do understand your position of caution toward giving a race a free benefit. While I don't personally think Amphibious needs a weakness, I wouldn't if you decided to attach one to it. Unlike some of the others, though, I would vote for poison to be their weakness rather than fire. In OoA, the Sea Zoras suffered greatly when the ocean became all polluted, clogging their gills, and this would also avoid doubling up on the fire weakness Dekus already have. I also wouldn't mind if you chose to adopt Eev's suggestion of making Amphibious an Innate you can opt out of.

I too would like to see more stuff about the denizens of other worlds, especially Subrosians. I mostly zeroed in on the Twili because, as you mentioned earlier, they're a very popular race, so it might be wise to have some very basic info about the Twilight Realm available, so any Twili profiles don't have to be extremely vague in their bios unless the player wants them to be.

I would hesitate to call the new Gerudo society "patriarchal," given that all of the authority figures aside from the king would be women, on account of the entire race sans one being female. I mean... it would be absurd to suggest women face gendered oppression and societal barriers when the entire race is said gender. Presumably, a Gerudo woman can still be whatever she wants. The misogynist implications of an all-female race being ruled by a king also kinda fade when you consider that the race was not always effectively monogendered, and the fact that the ruler is a man is just a holdover from ancient days. I do agree with your later point that it seems odd for the Golden Goddesses to designate a god-king to be reincarnated prior to the extinction of men, but maybe that's something that can be clarified a bit.

Of course, I'm mostly playing Devil's Advocate here. I think a happy compromise can be reached through what we discussed earlier today in the Cbox: I would imagine the Gerudo King being a largely ceremonial position, while Gerudo elders wielded most of the real power behind the scenes. As a proud warrior race, I could see the Gerudo flat-out killing a king they deemed unworthy of his title, and awaiting another to take his place. Considering the current write-up of the Gerudo suggests they have a system akin to a democracy, I think the idea of the king's elected generals and advisors being the true puppetmasters would fit perfectly.


That's all my thoughts for the moment. My sleep-deprived brain can handle no more. Thoughts on specific lore events will be forthcoming.

EDIT: A fair bit of the stuff I said here was ninja'd by Guy's post above mine, rip

I don't really feel strongly enough on the rest of the discussion going on so allow me to throw out some thoughts there Willow:

1). I notice the first event threads I partook in, the snowstorm covering most of Hyrule, isn't mentioned. I know it wasn't related to the currently ongoing plot and would need some great writerly gymnastics to make it so, but it stood out.

2). The Royal Sages are mentioned, but as we know, the currently ongoing plot dungeons serve to awaken a handful of PCs as Sages. Are these two groups different or is this an oversight? That may need clarifying after the Sages are awakened.

3). Moonshadow is complete, but I figure that will be added once all portals are closed.

4). I am really freaking intrigued by these four figures from Death Mountain.

I agree with Guy in that UCs should be things that aren't normal, IE talking animals and the like, rather than a way to insert races we can't be arsed to implement. I'll grant you the point of the Moblins speaking, but the Stalfos in MM were a unique case, hence the existence of Ikana on a lot of Zelda RP. I haven't played all the way through LA (not for lack of trying, though), so I can't comment on that. But no, I don't consider HW evidence, as it's non-canon.

I like the poison suggestion. If we really wanted to keep the River Zora and Sea Zora together, that would be viable for both, I suppose. Not that I'm necessarily arguing for that, as Guy has a point there too.

Sorry, gonna have to put on my feminist hat for a moment.

The entire race being female does not change the fact that, canonically, this race of powerful warrior women gives up their positions of power and bends their knees to the first male that comes along. Every generation. Furthermore, in canon, it really appears like said king has absolute power. There's nothing saying he has to listen to his councilors, or even that he has to have any. There's not even any information on HC indicating either way. Misogynism is in no way reliant on the number of males in the civilization. A fictional society where males are a quarter of the population and have harems of 3-4 women is just as misogynist as one where males are half the population and hold all the positions of power. A society with one man who is automatically king is just as problematic.

In any case, the other option in that second paragraph is a much preferable alternative that I'm fairly happy with, although I'd still prefer the Gerudo to have a female deity, being an all-female race, even if it's weird a race that came about so much later has a deity at all.

Great Fairies can be magically created, but according to the library, they can rise naturally from common fairies that are magically powerful. Maybe the Fairy Queen has always been around, making common fairies as companions, and a few rose to Great Fairy here and there on their own before the common fairies were scattered all over the place in large numbers?

I agree 100% with this sentiment. Maybe the UC page could be clarified a bit to rein it in and make it clear what it's meant for. I don't like all the suggestions going around that any race deemed unimportant enough should just be shunted into the UC category instead of using it to make actual unusual stuff : /

My argument against the Fokka thing was mostly on account of a reading failure on my part. I didn't realize at first it was being used as a term for flightless Rito. Knowing that, I do agree with you.

I like this plan. Um, I guess that's all I have to say here :P

I see what you mean a bit better now, so I'm in agreement here.

My original opinion on this was based on a misunderstanding, but, hey, I'm not particularly in favor of either way to deal with it, so whatever you think works here.

Agreed.

I think these should definitely stay together, especially since there's so damn many of them and all their culture and history are the same. And some of their physiology, even.

We're talking about a race--the only race in HC canon--which was heavily invested in slavery, rape, and indeed sexism. All of those traits are abhorred by the rest of the world, and ultimately led to the race's near-extinction. Needless to say none of those are condoned, but just because something is ugly and wrong doesn't mean it should be removed from works of fiction. When the Gerudo page is re-written, I intend to note about how modern Gerudo infrequently believe the "god-king male" with any kind of zeal. (I mean, really, Ganondorf was just that much of an asshat, so it makes sense.) Darth's second paragraph is a good starting point for that, indeed.

For me at least, the fact we can clearly talk about these sorts of things--which happen in real life all the time--are one of the reasons Role-Playing is enticing. Conflict, consequence, and taboos make for good plot devices.

Much of the mythical origins seem to conflict with modern events, and that's largely intentional. There's even a note about it at the beginning of the Mythical Origins section. It's made to parallel real-world prehistory and myth. The only difference is that in this world, the gods are definitively real and so is the magic, so it's difficult for anyone to dismiss myths as completely fabricated.

This was discussed in the shoutbox, but everyone there at the time seemed to agree that a "Poison Weakness" is a little wonky. In Oracle of Ages, poisoned seas were indeed killing off the Sea Zora there, but almost anything would die in a sea filled with poison. More importantly, it's difficult to articulate a weakness to something as broad as 'poison damage' in-character. What is poison damage, really? Nausea? Vomiting? Headaches? Fatigue?

If the two Zoras are to have different racial perks, it could make sense for them to both have Amphibious innately, but have different weaknesses. Canonically, River Zora almost always use Fire--and Sea Zora (or at least Zora Link) have an obvious weakness to fire. So, why not make it so River Zora are weak to electricity, since Sea Zora are able to use their Electric Aura spell? Sea Zora use electricity and are weak to fire; River Zora use fire and are weak to electricity. It seems to fit pretty well, I would think.

Fair point on the poison weakness. Fire weakness vs electric weakness sounds good as an alternative.