Library of Treasures suggestions, anyone?

Welp, I have the opportunity to revamp the entire library in a new format. As such, now would be the ideal time for any suggestions for changes to be brought forth... no matter how radical the suggestion.

Current Major Plans
- Many new treasures based on racial perks, members' ideas, less obvious canon, and other sources, including many more materials.
- Most treasures will be modified to clarify how a mount could acquire and use them; more information on pets/mounts will be added.
- Many prices and wording will change
- "Quest rupees" will now be known as "experience points" (so, 50xp instead of 50r for a treasure). This distinction is to help clarify the distinction between what are currently "quest rupees" and "currency rupees."
- The current treasure fields will be simplified, somewhat.
- The distinction of "unique treasures" will be removed.

Current Minor Plans
- Rewording of unstoppable force (shield breaker) vs. immovable object (goron iron)
- Vampirism alterations
- Cheaper compaction pouch

Unrelated
- When did dash get a motherfucking GaoGaiGar signature?!

...

Ideas? Criticisms? Bribes?

I say remove vampirism all together. Also, I suggest scrutinizing each treasure to see if it really fits into the zelda setting.

Another suggestion is we should make sail boats much cheaper so people can actually go explore the eastern sea (like 30-40 rupees).

...What you suggest is more unlikely than a heavy modification and renaming of the treasure. I intended to alter and contextualize it in such a way that the effect (as opposed to the aesthetic) of the treasure would make more sense. If the treasure was even called "Vire Plague" instead of "Vampirism," I doubt there would be even half as much drama over it.

...I don't feel as though that is particularly necessary, especially considering the broadness of what one could call, "the zelda setting." Allow me to remind you, this is a video game series which spans numerous titles, and includes all of the following extensively in at least one title: steam power, intricate clocks, extremely powerful retractile handheld gizmos which exceed even modern technical capabilities, more "a wizard did it" explanations than you can shake a stick at, and a civilization where people are only found living in caves and a mere bow appears to be the peak of modern mechanical technology. While one could argue Hyrule Castle aims to be a median of these extremes, I believe it shouldn't disallow their use by players.

This is on top of the fact treasures are only a means to an end. For example, a rod which spews magical flames is an acceptable version of a flamethrower, despite effectively being of arguably equal power and easier to wield. Likewise, magically mutated Vires could be a more acceptable version of Vampirism.

Yes, thanks for bringing that up again. Vehicles need to be improved a bit in several ways... and residences need to be clarified a bit more.

The thing with Vires and the "Vire Plague" or vampirism, is there is nothing to suggest that a vire is anything more than a moblin in the sense of just a monster. If a moblin bites someone do they now have the "Moblin Plague"? Sure the vires are like vampire bats, but that doesn't mean it passes on anything when it bites or whatever. I just simply don't like it. And this is the sort of thing I mean when things should be looked at and judged if it really fits with zelda. I feel like most of the treasures do fit, especially the things that are merely items etc... Its abilities that I wonder about is all, like Necromancers, or Clerics for example, things that fit more in a DnD atmosphere than a Zelda one. Zelda is more quirky than a hardcore fantasy setting.

Sort of like how nothing in canon suggests at least half the treasures in the library and player-characters of HC don't even exist?

1. You seem to be falsely assuming I'm going to have altered Vampirism be exactly like current Vampirism, except "a Vire did it instead of a vampire."

2. Disregarding the matter than the above is ridiculous, a Moblin is a humanoid barbarian/brute with boar characteristics. A Vire has shown the ability to use magic both of its own will (see LA and the Oracles) and by apparent creation (see LoZ). One magically mutated Vire could not possibly be the cause for any magical disease ever though, right? .-.

I just simply don't like Hylian Honor.

I just simply don't like people throwing suggestions at me like they're daggers.

I just simply don't like how the systems I attempt to invent are invariably abused, criticized, or misunderstood.

I just simply don't like how others consider a certain major treasure atrocity, when all it's really doing is granting a handful of reasonable variants on insignificant treasures they could already acquire plus a "blood addiction."

I just simply don't like how just because disease and blood (and romance and sexual relations) are never involved in a video game series aimed at all ages, some might say a role-play aimed at young adults can't involve those either.

I simply don't like how "I simply don't like" is ever a reasonable argument.

I simply don't like how I could be even more obnoxious by listing a dozen more things (...wait, I actually do remotely like that).

What is a Necromancer, other than a powerful sorcerer capable of animating Stalfos and Poes?
What is a Cleric, other than a Wise Man who draws a portion of his power from the gods?

While Link and most individuals he comes across may not possess a vast array of supernatural abilities like those found in the library, other paragons definitely do. Ganondorf, every Sage, Zelda, Impa of Skyward Sword, the Oracles, every Wizzrobe, ever Garo, Agahnim, nearly every Sheikah and Twili, and practically every boss ever are all prime examples just off the top of my head--and many of them possess crazier, more numerous, and more powerful abilities than perhaps any of HC's current player characters.

Although I do disagree on this particular treasure, I can see where you're coming from. Sparkling vampires, realistic shotguns, and instruments of rape do not belong in the library. That said, it is my hope and intention that the library is filled with treasures that "could be," and not only those which "should be."

...To be frank, it really seems to me like you're being too much of a stickler about things which don't really matter; saying "no, you can't do that" when there's little if any problem with doing it.

I was just pointing out my opinion, and when I say "I just simply don't like it" its an opinion not me saying "no you cant do that". I also misunderstood when you said you were going to rework vampirism into the vire thing, I took it more of a renaming than what you intended, so thats my fault.

And I largely agree with you, all I was trying to get at is what you pointed toward in the end, the whole "sparkling vampires" etc... I just want to make sure the integrity of the Lore and such of HC stays intact and doesn't get carried by the members away from what we want it to be like. I have no problem with adding things in that are not in the games as long as they feel good there, and for the most part that has happened. I was just saying that I don't know all of the treasures in the Library so when they are gone through, I just want to make sure they all fit. I wasn't trying to be a stickler about things, I just used poor examples.

I think a Vire Virus makes perfect sense. Vampirism is not really canon and doesn't... 'feel' like Zelda? Gah. This is why I stopped designing things, you can't describe vague impressions. But I think the treasures should have a bit of freedom instead of having to be explicitly stated as being a thing. But I agree with both of you that if they aren't really in universe it should have zeldaesque elements or attributes to make them fit. But it shouldn't be too strict, HC is a pretty big world and could hold a lot.

Since Bitoko brought up Necromancy I do have a treasure I made when I made my latest character that Quill okayed but it was never put in the library.

Raise Dead (open) Raise Dead (close)

`Raise Dead
Original: Ultra5, Spell - Utility
[Organic] [Transformation] [Undead]
W5: 45 rupees
W4: 60 rupees
W3: 90 rupees
W2: 120 rupees

Prerequisite to acquire & use: Wisdom 2

After drawing a ritualistic design around a body that is less than 24 hours post-mortem and chanting the words of the spell the dead body will rise. The spell takes about five minutes to fully prepare and cast. The raised body is unthinking and will follow any verbal orders of the caster to the best of it's ability. Any creature raised with this spell gains a weakness to fire and an aversion to light. The raised undead is able to use any weapons that it could use in life especially the weapons on it's body at death. While the body is useful for a time the body is still decomposing, and depending upon the raised body's location this can happen rather quickly. The spell lasts for up to two hours or until the caster cancels the spell. Once the spell has been cast on a body the spell can not be recast on it. (I talked with Quill on this treasure and he says it is good)

I agree with Toko's idea about making sail boats cheaper, but I'm with Guy about the Vampirism. If we totally got rid of it, it could cause some problems. After all, we already have developed characters with Vampirism, and scrapping it could really mess things up for those. Also I do really like Cloudy's idea, but, whether we do that or not, if Mount's are being given attention, I think vehicles should be given similar attention. If not all vehicles, at least drawn vehicles, such as carriages, should.

I have a question. What will happen with characters who already have the changed treasures? I don't expect they can continue playing with the old version, but there are people who got shield breaker fully wanting it to be that crazy "I break everything" ability. Would they be able to say they no longer want the changed version and get a refund? And on that same line, would those who already have things like boats or compaction pouches be reimbursed the difference?

This would be taken on a case-by-case basis, but generally the treasure would have to function like the new version. (That said, as long as the treasure wasn't used that way in the Arena, it likely wouldn't be scrutinized to the point that they would be forced to change it.)

My current intention is to--after finishing the new LoT--make a thread specifically logging 'refunds.' A player would only be allowed to receive a refund if he posted in that thread and in his respective character sheet(s), and in doing so, he could gain the value of the treasure lost. He could either gain the refund value immediately in rupees, or gain it in "bonus xp" after completing their next quest or dungeon.

...Of course, a player would only get a refund if (1) he no longer wants a significantly-altered treasure, or if (2) a treasure he currently possesses is reduced in cost. I intend for as few instances as possible to warrant the prior situation.

On the subject of mounts, this is the treasure I was aiming to add to the new library. For whatever reason, it doesn't seem to want to be added... but I guess I can annoy adad about that later.

Mount (open) Mount (close)

A mount is effectively an exceptional pet. Contrary to the title, a creature does not necessarily have to be rideable to be considered a mount. While a character is allowed to have a small and simple creature for free as a pet, the pet is treated as a mount--and thus a treasure which must be earned--as soon as it meets any of the following criteria:
- Used effectively in combat.
- Used to ride by either the character, or another humanoid larger than a Picori.
- Is of size roughly equal to or larger than the character.
- Gains one or more treasures (or treasure-tier abilities) independant of its corresponding character.
- Separates and acts independently of its character for extended periods of time. (This excludes being told to stay or wait. Like a pet, a mount still cannot normally be in any role-plays independant of its character.)

The XP cost of a mount is calculated dynamically, depending upon the sum of its abilities. In effect, each of the mount's significant characteristics are given a set amount of points, tallied together to determine a "Mount Score." More powerful and more numerous beneficial characteristics raise the score, and thereby raise the XP cost of the mount.

Aside from the characteristics listed below, any additional abilities of the mount (such as breathing fire or casting magic) are considered independant treasures, the XP cost of which is added onto that of the mount's. These additional abilities may be acquired simultaneously with the mount, if the XP cost can be paid in full at that time. See individual treasures for how their cost would be calculated for a mount.

Mount Characteristics
Note: All characteristics listed behind seperate modifiers are cumulative. When attempting to earn your mount, you should list all modifiers which apply.

~Species
+1: Is neither a horse nor a loftwing.
+1: Is either a land-bound mount not mammilian, a flying mount not avian (a bird), or of a species not normally found in Hyrule.
+1: Is arguably more intelligent than a dog or horse. This also treats the mount as having a 2/2/2 base score for the purposes of earning treasures (instead otherwise being 2/1/1).
+1: Is capable of articulate communication on par with speech.

~Size and Shape
-1: Is of smaller size than the character.
+1: Is of larger size than the character. (For exceptionally large mounts, consult a staffer.)
+X: The amount of creatures of the character's size the mount is capable of carrying, without strain, is equal to X. (For example, an average riding horse could carry two full-size Hylians, but would be strained in doing so, so this is treated as 1. A draft horse could carry two full-size Hylians easily, instead treating it as 2.)
+Y: The amount of limbs with functionality equivalent to or better than a hylian's arm is equal to Y. (For mounts with many tentacled limbs, exceptions can be made; consult a staffer.)

~ Mobility: Land and Sea
-2: Moves slower than the character on land or over land (including flight).
-1: Moves at a speed roughly equal to the character on land or over land.
-2: Cannot breathe air, and the character is not Amphibious.
-1: Cannot breathe air, and the character is Amphibious.
+1: Moves faster and more nimbly on (but not necessarily over) land than a riding horse with a suitable rider.
+1: Capable of charging momentarily at high speeds, like a cheetah, gazelle, or an extraordinary bull.
+1: Moves nimbly (but not necessarily quickly) over land, as most feline creatures are.
+1: Moves through water more quickly than the character.
+1: Capable of diving and easily swimming both underwater and on the surface of water, and can breathe water.

~Mobility: Air
-1: Flies by means of wings, as opposed to other methods of flight.
+2: Capable of "bumbling" flight; barely able to stay airborne, flies at very slow speeds, and can't turn. Or can only glide.
+2: Capable of reaching high speeds through flight or diving, much like a hawk.
+2: Capable of hovering or turning at sharp angles, much like a keese.

~ Combat
+1: Willingly engages in combat either of its own accord or if ordered to do so, as opposed to standing there idly or running away, and is normally capable of taking down a single Keese.
+1: Is often capable of taking down a single Octorok in one-on-one combat, too.
+2: Is often capable of taking down a typical Moblin in one-on-one combat, too.
+4: Is often capable of taking down either a Darknut or Aquamentus in one-on-one combat, too.

Mount Score Costs
2 or less: 20 XP
3: 30 XP
4: 50 XP
5: 80 XP
6: 120 XP
7: 170 XP
8: 230 XP
9: 300 XP ~ considered a major treasure from this point onwards.
10: 380 XP
11: 470 XP
12: 570 XP
13: 680 XP
14: 800 XP
15+: Consult a staffer.

A mount begins to be considered a major treasure when its score equals or exceeds 9. It will also be considered a major treasure if its effective score increases to 9 or above after its creation. (For example, this could happen if a mount gains treasures which greatly enhance its combat abilities.)

P5 reduces the cost to 70% normal, rounded to the nearest whole point.
P4 reduces the cost to 85% normal, rounded to the nearest whole point.
P3 and below use the normal cost.

Mount's Treasures
Mounts are capable of earning treasures (excluding item treasures) independently of their character. (While a mount can arguably use many item treasures, the item treasures are still considered as belonging to the character.) A mount earns a treasure much in the same way a character would--normally through a quest, with both the character and the mount involved.

In addition to normal prerequisites, most non-item treasures also have additional "Mount Prerequisites." Most of these prerequisites use the following abbreviations.
- Impossible: A mount simply cannot earn the designated treasure.
- Intelligence: The mount must have the species characteristic granting it intelligence.
- Voice: The mount must be able to speak, or be able to provide intricate sounds on the level of speech.
- Hand: Requires one limb as capable and dexterous as a human hand.
- Weapon: Requires a weapon, usually for WeaponBase treasures; claws, fangs, and the like can be used.

By default, a mount is considered as having 2/1/1 for the purpose of earning treasures. (Note, this does not represent its "true" PWC, and instead only affects its treasure-learning capability.) If it is intelligent, as per the characteristic, it instead has a base of 2/2/2.

If the mount's corresponding character has a 3 or higher in any one area of PWC, the mount gains a +1 to that respective area of PWC. On top of this, the mount can gain an additional +1 to one of its with the Mount's Aptitude treasure.

If the character already has the treasure the mount is to learn, he can teach it to the mount with a cost as though the mount had 5/5/5, regardless of its effective PWC. This does not allow the mount to reach PWC prerequisites it would not otherwise be able, however.

Finally, any major treasures belonging to the mount also count against the character. This applies even if both the character and the mount both have the same major treasure. (For example, if a character and a mount both were able to cast Life, that character would be treated as using up 2 of his major treasure slots.)

Yes, I realize it is quite complicated--definitely the most complicated treasure in the library--but I hope its end result is favorable. This system provides the following mount costs for a 3/3/3 character:
- Typical riding horse (one passenger): 20 or 30 XP
- Robust horse (two passengers, limited combat ability): 80 XP
- Link's Loftwing (limited combat ability): 230 XP
- "Wyvern" (basically Link's loftwing but with scales and claws): 380 XP, major
- Motherfucking Dragon (Loftwing-sized, firebreathing, intelligent and speaking, relatively combat capable but not boss-tier, slow on land): 800 XP + XP cost of Fire Breath, major

A P5 character would pay 560 for a "Motherfucking Dragon," plus the Fire Breath cost, and it would still occupy a major slot. It has a score of 14, which represents the absolute limit a mount is capable of reaching. Anything higher would exponentially increase rupee cost and likely occupy multiple major treasure slots.

Approvals? Disapprovals? Tantrums?

EDIT: Ultra5 brought this up in the cbox, but those who already have mounts won't be "charged" more for their additional mounts. Nonetheless, they should keep track of their mount's score, and the mount will (except in special cases) occupy a major treasure slot if it is major. As with other treasures, any mounts actually made cheaper will provide a refund.

EDIT2: Vehicle costs will be calculated separately but similarly to mounts. Of note is that most drawn vehicles will be equal to or only slightly more expensive than the mount which draws them.

Not really related to the current subject, but I have a question...

Since quest rewards are being changed from rupees to XP, how would this affect Rupee-related treasures and Professions? Would they simply stay the same, with Rupees being only used for the proposed Marketplace and/or Dreamtwister? Further, if those two facilities really are going to be added, how would one acquire Rupees to spend on them? Would quests have an option of 50 total, and a character could obtain 30 XP and 20 Rupees if he so chose? Could rupees be exchanged for XP, and/or vice versa, such as paying for a combat trainer to obtain XP at an inflated rate? (Say, 5 rupees for 1 XP?)

Finally, while XP would probably eliminate the hassle of rping finding or losing corporal objects in exchange for treasures, and would help explain how the PCs find their equipment, some objects, like a large Residence (Though I'm not sure if anyone uses this yet?) would make more sense to have a rupee cost, whether that's an additional thing to be added or just entirely based on rupees.

...For the record, even though I'm bringing all this up please know I support the idea, I just want to play Devil's Advocate so we can shoot down any potential problems before they become, you know, actual problems.

Guy: Disapproval. Much disapproval.

This is based on my experience alone, but I had a concept of an Ice-elemental Phoenix that was already approved at 150 rupees/exp/what have you. With this system, it becomes either 120 or 170 rupees (Am I supposed to pay for 'can take an octoroc' in addition to 'can take a moblin'?) and that's WITHOUT it's ice breath, resilience to cold, and while omitting things that were iffy in regards to the system (such as it being able to understand Luna's spoken language- I already omitted that because it'd make it more expensive). If I give it those things as well, ten to one I end up at OVER double the initial price.

Not cool. Considering Luna is already saving up for it and can't use Horus' earnings in addition to her own, this is changing the rules in the middle of the game for me.

To be fair BP, a Cryopheonix isn't actually what Toko would call "Zelda-esque" so having to pay more for something like that is understandable from my viewpoint.

Hmmm.... I'm looking at the new system for mounts and there's some stuff that really irks me in it. Previously, I've had a pet appraised by Will at 45 rupees. It's a floating rock with one way telepathy with Masaro only. Now... With this system... It jumps to 80 or 120, depending upon the same thing BP mentioned. This is before any spells I'm giving it, and I imagine it having the ability to cast magic would tack on an extra 110 rupees, again -before any spells are given-. Oh, an this is using two exploits otherwise it gains another three points. Rocks don't need air. And rocks are common in Hyrule. How the hell does the price jump from 45 rupees to around four hundred and fricken seventy rupees?

I honestly think normal mounts should be given a set price, for stuff like horses, or dodongos, or thing's like that, and then special cases should be left case by case to mods as it has been. That way you're not going to have everything be massively overpriced. Because really, all this system would do is turn people away from making decent pets because nobody is ever going to get through the eight RPs to pay for it when everything else in the library is cheaper.

Tl;dr: Not a fan. Veto?

I wouldn't call Wyverns Zelda-esque. Nor would I Dragons who obey a human master. Besides, there's the Furnix enemy in the game which does the same as my Ice Phoenix, except with fire and a lot smaller. I never even intended for the damn thing to do rebirth shit.

I like the overall idea of this level of choosing what your mount can and can't do and pay the appropriate amount for them, and it also give players something to point to to see if the mount can(n't) do something. But I think it needs tweaking, so Imma just make a list and anyone can agree, disagree, criticize, or just throw their compy at a wall.

PS: Tsu, looking at your rock, it comes out at 0 or 1, not like 5

- was the "bumbling flight" modifier supposed to be negative? I can't see being penalized for having a slow mount over a normal speed one.

- What would constitute "articulate speech"? would a one-way telepathy? or being only able to understand, not speak (or vice versa)? and how does this work with "Language of Fauna"?

- Moves faster and more nimbly on (but not necessarily over) land than a riding horse with a suitable rider. maybe change the "With a suitable rider" cause that means that a regular riding horse would suffer the penalty (cause it doesnt come with a rider)

- do the "can it kill a octorock/moblin/darknut" modifiers stack, or only apply the highest?

Another thing is how different this is from the other system, especially in costs. Take U5's "Eysseth" mount for example, in the old system it cost 50 rupees. In the new one it would cost about 570 well over 10 times the previous amount (if i applied everything right). ( I know it's a powerful mount but still)

(+1: Is neither a horse nor a loftwing.
+1: Is either a land-bound mount not mammilian, a flying mount not avian (a bird), or of a species not normally found in Hyrule.
+1: Is arguably more intelligent than a dog or horse. This also treats the mount as having a 2/2/2 base score for the purposes of earning treasures (instead otherwise being 2/1/1).
+1: Is of larger size than the character. (For exceptionally large mounts, consult a staffer.)
+X: The amount of creatures of the character's size the mount is capable of carrying, without strain, is equal to X. (For example, an average riding horse could carry two full-size Hylians, but would be strained in doing so, so this is treated as 1. A draft horse could carry two full-size Hylians easily, instead treating it as 2.) X=3
-1: Flies by means of wings, as opposed to other methods of flight.
+2: Capable of reaching high speeds through flight or diving, much like a hawk.
+1: Willingly engages in combat either of its own accord or if ordered to do so, as opposed to standing there idly or running away, and is normally capable of taking down a single Keese.
+1: Is often capable of taking down a single Octorok in one-on-one combat, too.
+2: Is often capable of taking down a typical Moblin in one-on-one combat, too.)

Finally, the points to be better defined, cause this system can be pushed a lot. Take Tsu's planned floating, spell-casting rock idea. If we wanted to push it I can bring the thing to a negative value whereas he claims its closer to about 6 points.

My expoiltive break down:
+1: Is neither a horse nor a loftwing.

(do not apply, as the mount is a hylian soul, so very common, in a rock, Super Uber common.)
+1: Is either a land-bound mount not mammilian, a flying mount not avian (a bird), or of a species not normally found in Hyrule.

+1: Is arguably more intelligent than a dog or horse. This also treats the mount as having a 2/2/2 base score for the purposes of earning treasures (instead otherwise being 2/1/1).

-1: Is of smaller size than the character.

-2: Moves slower than the character on land or over land (including flight). (agreed fact between me and Tsu)

-2: Cannot breathe air, and the character is not Amphibious. (lacks a need to breath, as is a rock)

+2: Capable of "bumbling" flight; barely able to stay airborne, flies at very slow speeds, and can't turn. Or can only glide.

I am assuming it is bought with no spells, so it can't even reasonably kill a keese: no combat modifiers.

end result: -1

non-exploitive: +1: Is neither a horse nor a loftwing.

+1: Is either a land-bound mount not mammilian, a flying mount not avian (a bird), or of a species not normally found in Hyrule.

+1: Is arguably more intelligent than a dog or horse. This also treats the mount as having a 2/2/2 base score for the purposes of earning treasures (instead otherwise being 2/1/1).

-1: Is of smaller size than the character.

-2: Moves slower than the character on land or over land (including flight). (agreed fact between me and Tsu)

+2: Capable of "bumbling" flight; barely able to stay airborne, flies at very slow speeds, and can't turn. Or can only glide.

+2: Capable of hovering or turning at sharp angles, much like a keese.

+1: Willingly engages in combat either of its own accord or if ordered to do so, as opposed to standing there idly or running away, and is normally capable of taking down a single Keese.
+1: Is often capable of taking down a single Octorok in one-on-one combat, too.
+2: Is often capable of taking down a typical Moblin in one-on-one combat, too.

(as with spells this is what it could do)

bringing the grand total to: 8 points

so if you're good at pushing the system, you can get a unique mount dirt cheap, in this case a normally 230 XP mount is gotten for 20 XP. And on top of it, if you wanted to make it a bit more powerful (push the points to 2) than you can do so without any additional cost.

The upside to having these vague points however, is that you can have the players come up with strange mounts so each feels unique as opposed to "It's a horse, it's a better horse, it's a dragon" kinda thing.

Like I said earlier, like the system, but needs some serious tweaking.