I want your opinion!

I can't speak for others, but personally? I'd rather see HH removed all together.

I'm with double here. The first reason is that as was previously said, it sort of implicitly states that if you're not HH, you're not writing a good/rounded/human character, though I realize I'm likely being more judgmental towards it than I probably should be.

The second reason is that it seems to me like the resulting character would have trouble being used for anything; you could really do anything you could with a HH character with anyone else, better, and they would get treasures easier due to PWC restrictions; that is, the main reason for HH that was cited, character development, is actually far slower. Maybe that's the point, but I honestly feel as though HH is fairly unnecessary for the sake of character development or exploration given that most people who were interested in it were doing that anyway, without the actual aid of a system devoted to it. I could be entirely wrong about that, though, since I've never really used HH.

In any event though I'll trust your judgment. I understand the desire to highlight someone who went out of their way to ensure that their character is realistically flawed, even if I don't agree with the mode of doing it.

I'm gonna add my vote to the tally that UD and Double have started. Having HH in place, especially with the way it was advertised when it was first implemented, it seems to be a really big 'these characters are better-written and better-thought-out than yours.' Considering I feel bad enough about my writing as things are I really don't need that reinforcing it.

There's also the issue UD brought up. I HAVE in fact considered making an HH character just to prove that dammit, I CAN do that. However, I ended up deciding against it because I honestly can't think of ways I could use a character like that in RPs. The fact is that RPs like HC ARE based in combat and HC characters DO need treasures to be of use to a travelling company. And the argument that HH makes for better character development is the biggest load of censored material that I've heard. If you don't have it in you to do character development, you won't do it with HH either- whereas if you have character development planned or are willing and capable of doing it, you'll do it without HH as well.

But Will, it doesn't matter that it's not the intention. Knowing something consciously doesn't fix the subconscious interpretation of it. That's the vibe given by it, and that's not easily changed. Couldn't simply allowing you to not use all of your PWC serve the exact same purpose and make HH redundant altogether anyways?

Welp, ninja'd by Double. I was going to clarify: Just because HH wasn't MEANT as elitism doesn't mean that people haven't INTERPRETED it as such. And people can still continue to do so, especially new people who weren't around to see the discussion that we held about this when HH was first implemented.

Hm. I could see Major Gain being 100 rupees for vets, and 150 rupees for Newcomers or Regulars... It's basically just completing three quests, rather than two. What would you think of that?

I do admittedly worry that, since every character created is a potential source of 100r, an out-of-character purchase could be abused if rupees can be pooled between characters. Even unintentionally, someone like BP/Tsu/myself who make a large number of characters would inherently have more rupees overall, usually just because at least a few rupees are almost always left over (in the current system).

So, the rupees might either have to come from one character; or the "Race License" would have to be unlocked only be completed a specific quest/dungeon, much like the exclusive treasures Will has been incorporating into plot dungeons. (Most likely, it would be the former.)

Granted, it's possible to give all of my characters' rupees to Sienna, and have her purchase the Race License, posing the same problem. Pooling your rupees into one character like this, however, would be more noticeable.

If it's not a problem, then what is it?

I do see your point, but really, we already have that issue. The way PWC costs are currently set up, you could save up 300 rupees for something which costs 60 rupees for another character. Rare is the player who would bother with that; he'd just look for treasures which are less punishing to the type of character he is playing. (Amusingly, even you did this with the Goron Tunic, if I recall correctly. )

The sorts of things a typical player would consider saving up for are grand things which are expensive for everyone: a draconic mount, a Great Deku Flying Machine, PWC increases, or several Major treasures. Granted, more of these grand treasures should be added, but it doesn't seem we need as many of them as cheaper ones simply because they're more expensive and require more time & effort to earn. (That's not to mention, a mythic mount (or vehicle) can be a vast array of different treasures, really.)

woot

It's better to post too much than not enough. That's my policy, anyway.

This is a valid point on the issue no one's really made before...

...Anyway, if HH stays, the grading "difficulty" wouldn't be apparent anymore. Any character who earned "Devoted" or "Ascetic" may keep their title as an inheritance. The only real remnany of it would be a special title more akin to "Commoner" or "Peasant" for characters who opted to not use all of their PWC points. Such titles do, after all, represent what these characters are generally intended to be.

EDIT: Part of the reason we no longer carried the Passed/Good/Excellent character grading over from HS, if I recall, was because different Staff would grade differently. That only seems like it would apply for Ascetic/Devoted as well.

I'm pretty down with the whole "clear special dungeon for Darknuts" idea (storm Ganon's Tower so you can steal liberate a suit of their armor, to act as a License? Yes please.), and the vets getting Major Gain seems a pretty decent compromise too.

I'm also pretty cool with a little note in character creation bringing up the possibility of PWC handicap and the general re-focus on characterization in that event should HH be removed.

You're right, it was discussed, but the bar between Ascetic, Devoted, Regular, and Failure is ultimately very arbirtrary. Bitoko might be more lineant than I am, or vice versa. Ultimately, it doesn't seem fair to players to expect staff to grade consistently. None of us are English majors, we're all imperfect, and we're all unintentionally biased. Having one bar for pass/fail is already too ambiguous when it comes to writing, so I'd rather not make it worse, you know?

I think we'll have to have a discussion on the addition of monster races prestiege races later on. There's no clear best way to implement them, as far as I can tell. Your dungeon idea does seem cool, but as you yourself said, that might be a bit steep. On the other hand, only one quest seems a bit shallow. Paying for them with rupees has its own issues.

At the very least, it seems everyone agrees that Veteran-exclusive races should be obtainable by Regulars for a cost. I do like UD's idea of having the Race License be an (optional) in-character item, like a Darknut's armor or a Subrosian's robe. As it stands, I expect Subrosians, Skull Kids, and Tokay to become available to Regulars with a 100r expenditure. This could either be a treasure to be obtained in-character as a quest reward, or a "Race License" which could be bought from the Twister without needing to complete a quest.

As for Major Gain, it seems like 100r for Vets and 150r for Newcomers/Regulars will become the norm. I've yet to hear anyone object to that.

Major Gain is up in the new library: http://library.hyrulecastle.org/index.php?title=Major_Gain

So is a modified version of Crafting: http://library.hyrulecastle.org/index.php?title=Crafting

Another 80+ treasures are currently available, too. Reviewing, modifying, and adding them all is admittedly taking longer than I previously expected, but, should take less than a month at this rate. Once it's nearing completion, I'll make an Announcements thread summarizing the changes and additions.

I've been looking through the new library. If I may say I really like it. Easier to navigate than the thread to me.

I must say the format does look pretty slick. Thanks for all the hard work guy.

EDIT: Botanist and Woodworker look interesting. Does this mean we can look forward to new materials?

I LOVE the new Library, Guy. You're doing a GREAT job on that- just seeing that makes me want to RP more again. I know, I'm easily entertained.

Thank you for all the feedback. Hearing your words is quite encouraging, and, really, my only payment for spending endless hours on this.

If anyone wouldn't mind, I would really appreciate any proofreading you're willing to do. Since I'm trying to get a lot done quickly, I don't proofread as thoroughly as I should be, so there's been at least a few typos thus far.

Yes. I've already added Compaction Thread (Tailor), Compaction Seed (Botanist), and Binding Stone (BlackSmith/Tailor/Woodworker). Chill Seeds and Ember Seeds can also now be used as Botanist Materials. As the new Library fills up, I intend to add many more materials, and make some existing items into optional materials.

I'll take some time tomorrow after horseback riding if you want me to. Can anyone edit the wiki, or just you?

It's currently set up so only manually-added members can edit it. An administrator (which is just me at the moment) would need to add a user account for someone else, but from that point the added user should be able to edit pages normally.

So, if you want to help, I can make an account for you.

That'd be great. I won't be making new pages but I can certainly tweak spelling.