I want your opinion!

As you likely know already, Bitoko has given me full responsibility and ownership of the site. I'm intent on not letting this go to my head, while also doing everything in my power for the betterment of Hyrule Castle. There's been a backlog of work for a while now, and on top of that, I have several plans I wish to execute. Before I do anything major, I want to make sure the majority of the active members here are on board with the changes I will now propose.

If you have any opinions--positive or negative--please let me know. I will hear you out, and endeavor to see your thoughts from your perspective, but realize that I intend to better HC as a whole (which usually means siding with the majority.) Please keep in mind that none of the changes below are set in stone.

Changes to Positions & Staff (open) Changes to Positions & Staff (close)

As it currently stands, official staff includes Fcgfyv, Will, and myself. For the immediate future, I don't intend to change this, though eventually we will be needing more Staff members. However, I intend to give Veterans a large degree of privileges they didn't previously have; and these privileges will hopefully help out the Staff.

From this point forward, Veterans will only be appointed by current Staff members. As you know, Veterans are to be both experienced and trustworthy. I feel like we should trust them with the ability to grade quests (and dungeons), aside of course from their own. A Veteran isn't expected to perform such duties like staff members are, but they may volunteer to do so, then PM a Staff member to move a thread if need be. On a case-by-case basis, a Veteran could also be given additional privileges--such as being able to control a NPC account--depending on Staff discretion.

I would like Veteran-exclusive races to become available to Regulars, and feature the normal 2, 1, 1 base PWC instead of their 2, 2 1 PWC. There have been complaints of the "Veteran wall" to access popular races, and the reasons I originally gave ("they're less common in Hyrule") no longer feel appropriate even to me. Most player-characters aren' 'common' to begin with.

I intend to alter the limitations on Major treasures. The first such treasure would be available to any character for the normal price, while additional Major treasures would be given a rupee cost increase. (Effectively, gaining an additional Major treasure slot would cost 100r.) A Major treasure is, after all, intended to define a character, regardless of whether you're a Newbie or Veteran. As such, I would like to remove the bonus Major treasure slots characters get after promotion (but let anyone who already has multiple Major treasures keep them).

Finally, the Regular's forum would be removed. The Veteran's forum would only exist to discuss promoting Newbies to Regulars, for advice on grading dungeons, or to ask for additional Veteran privileges that might be better off as secret (like controlling an NPC).

After these changes, the new position hierarchy would look like this:

- Newbie: +4 PWC to base; access to Newbie races; can become a Regular by petitioning Veterans or staff

- Regular: +5 PWC to base; access to all races; will only be promoted to Veteran by a Staff member's action

- Veteran: +5 PWC to base; access to all races; has the option of promoting Newbies and grading Quests (aside from their own)

Yay? Nay? Partial yay or nay?

Changes to the Library of Treasures (open) Changes to the Library of Treasures (close)

I intend to put MediaWiki software on library.hyrulecastle.org. This is the (free, open-source) software used to run ZeldaWiki, Wikipedia, and many other wikis. Obviously, the LoT isn't a true wiki, but this software could be used to make it much easier to manage. A user could could view a full list of all treasures, or browse ones specific to a field. You could link to one specific treasure, which would be useful for character sheets, signatures, quest threads, etc. You could search for specific treasures in numerous different ways, whether it be by name, by field, or by text in the description. A link to the new LoT would be put on the library button beneath the banner, and various links would be placed in pinned threads as appropriate. If you're on the library, you'd only be one click away from the forums; and vice versa.

Like I said earlier, your first Major treasure would be the same price it is now. Additional Major treasures would net a 100 rupee increase.

(I'd also like to phase out treasures that are both Unique and Major, if possible.)

I intend to expand Crafting. Its current existence as a three-leveled treasure would effectively be kept in-tact, but I intend to make it much more robust. A much larger array of Materials would be made available, and crafting items from these materials would be cheaper. Generally, I'd like to make it possible to craft as many treasures from materials as is reasonable--whether it be a reflective steel for Mirror Shields, or a magical scarlet gem which can give a weapon a built-in Fire Enchantment.

There's another slight change I'd like to make. Like it does now, an ability would keep the same progression in PWC cost from X5 to X1. Most items, however, would have an X1 and X2 cost equal to their X3 cost. Not only would this be more logical (as why couldn't ANYONE get something like Hover Boots?), but would make items feel more like tradeable items with a narrower price gap. This is in response to several complaints now about how items are virtually unobtainable to some characters, for (in my opinion, even) little reason.

Furthermore, the difference between an X5 and X1 treasure would be narrowed, and the rather arbitrary pricing system would be altered into a simpler manner of pricing. The current ladder of prices is based on the following template:
X5: 75%
X4: 100%
X3: 150%
X2: 200%
X1: 300%

Obviously, this short-shafts characters who don't specialize (have a 4 or 5) in the aspect of the treasure, a bit more than was originally intended. When setting up that price mechanic, I had no experience with the path quests and treasures would take. Now that we've all been able to see how things progress, I feel like a different setup would be more appropriate.

The majority of treasures would fall into a category of "difficulty" from 1 to 5: Easiest, Easier, Normal, Harder, or Hardest. Their prices would then be set to one of the following standards, accordingly:

Easiest: Gibdo Mask, Bomb Mask, Crossbow
X5: 10
X4: 15
X3: 20
X2: 25
X1: 30

Easier: Jump, what-Hover-Boots-should-be
X5: 30
X4: 35
X3: 40
X2: 45
X1: 50

Normal: Fire, Bomb Bag
X5: 40
X4: 50
X3: 60
X2: 70
X1: 80

Harder: Fire Enchantment, Bombchu Bag, Goron Tunic
X5: 60
X4: 70
X3: 80
X2: 90
X1: 100

Hardest: Light Enchantment, most Major treasures
X5: 70
X4: 85
X3: 100
X2: 115
X1: 130

Most treasures not falling into one of the above categories would either have one static price (regardless of PWC), or have multiple levels (much like Crafting and Professions currently do).

The Specialty field's effect would be altered to (instead of altering PWC), enable a treasure of the user's Specialty field to be one step lower on the difficulty scale. This would be simpler, and wouldn't be less punishing to characters with high PWC. For example, someone specializing in Ice would treat the Ice Enchantment as a "Normal" treasure, instead of a "Harder" treasure.

Additionally, many abilities would be given progressive levels. These would be entirely optional. But, for example, a weaker version of Quick Draw might take 30 seconds to charge, while the full version would take only the normal 3 seconds. This would mainly make for allowing characters to grow into learn abilities through role-playing, rather than suddenly be able to use them as proficiently as a character who's had the same ability for far longer. (Obviously, this would only apply to abilities, not items.)

All treasures which are currently Single-Use treasures (which admittedly are largely pointless) would become Materials used by Crafters.

It would cost hundreds of rupees, but I would like to make it possible for a character to earn a permanent PWC increase. Hypothetically, it would be possible to earn up to a total of 12 points (as in 5/5/2, or 4/4/4) by this method, but doing so would cost far more than maxing out a profession did... so... I wouldn't expect it to happen.

The previous idea for the "Mount/Vehicle Metric" would finally be implemented, with slight modifications to make the more expensive options cheaper.

The LoT overall would see many tweaks to fields, descriptions, and organization. I already have a tentative list of fields, which should be a bit easier to understand and implement, but remains largely the same. The treasure submitting process would remain mostly similar, but be intended to be more inclusive. The LoT is intended to be malleable, and ideas should be sought to be added, not avoided.

Because the LoT has become so large, and likely will become even larger, I feel the need to "highlight" treasures that are recommended for newcomers as good and easy-to-understand options. I'm not sure if a term like "Hero's Choice" or "Staple Treasures" would be more appropriate, but it would generally include canonical, robust, and easy-to-understand treasures suitable to a wide array of characters. The Bomb Bag, Fire, Hookshot, Spin Attack, and the like would most likely be included. This would ideally represent a relatively small number of treasures (ideally under 50), which wouldn't be impossible to browse through.

Finally, for a long time, people have gotten confused over the fact that if they have 200 rupees in a Quest, they can't just buy four 50-rupee treasures. Perhaps it's about time that we amend that? It would help give excess rupees a purpose, that's for sure.

Despite all these proposed changes,
- Anyone's current treasures would not be removed, nor will anyone be indebted with rupees or major slots.
- Even if treasures are removed from the Library--and I don't think many will--anyone who already has them will be "grandfathered-in" and be able to keep them.
- No treasure's price is currently set to drastically increase. If anything, most treasures will become slightly cheaper (but treasure levels/upgrades, attainable Major slots, earnable PWC increases, and legendary mounts/vehicles will give plenty more to earn).

Hylian Honor & Sub-Accounts (open) Hylian Honor & Sub-Accounts (close)

Well... To be honest, they seem pretty unpopular. It seems finalized that Sub-Accounts will be removed. Should Hylian Honor be swept away as well?

Guide & F.A.Q. (open) Guide & F.A.Q. (close)

Bitoko and Quill have worked on this in the past. Tsubori and others have commented on how difficult it can be to introduce new members. I'd like to see if we could condense as much of our pinned threads and guidance into one thread, where anyone can direct a newcomer as he or she arrives, which explains everything. I'd be using some material Quill has already written, and combine different topics, to help make this possible.

Condensing the Forums (open) Condensing the Forums (close)

Right now, HC has approximately seventy-one--seventy-one different forums and subforums. Numerous times it's been decided or stated that they should be condensed, but it hasn't really happened.

Excluding staff forums and Ylisse, there's still about 48 different forums. Obviously, we don't use all of them, and it can be intimidating to newbies, so why not condense the forums? I propose the following organization:

Official
Announcements
Small Updates (approved treasures, altered treasures, NPC events, etc.)

Community
Introductions
Suggestions & Ideas
-> Treasure Ideas
Role-Play Discussion
Veteran Discussion (only viewable to Veterans)
General Discussion
-> Forum Games
Creative Works

Role-Play Organization
Guide & F.A.Q.
Character Roster
-> Accepted Characters
-> Retired Characters
Quest Bureau
Archives
-> Completed Threads
-> Unfinished Threads

Role-Playing
Events
- Hall of Secrets
Northern Hyrule
Southern Hyrule
Great Sea
Battle Arena
Classic Dungeons

Separate Role Playing
Sandbox Role Plays
Ylisse (and its subforums)


This would coincidentally...
- Remove Official Hyrule Castle Contests, merging them into Announcements
- Remove Video Game Discussion and Zelda Discussion, merging them into General Discussion
- Put all "Completed-or-Dead" subforums into the Archives
- Remove the separate Hylian Honor subforum, but add an area for Retired Characters
- Add a "Hall of Secrets" subforum, to be used specifically when requesting audience with NPCs like the Arena Lord or Dream Twister
- Excluding Ylisse and Staff forums, bring the total from 48 down to 26, nearly halving it
- Bring the number of main forums (viewable on the index as a Newcomer)--including Ylisse--down from 22 to 17, making it a bit less intimidating for newcomers.

(I considered combining Northern & Southern Hyrule, possibly to include the Great Sea, but felt that could be too controversial.)

Of course, I'm still learning how the software Bitoko installed works, but likely most of the game pages will be removed after a couple days; I'll try to fix many links which are now broken. I'd like to move our affiliate links to a more visible spot right beneath the forum list. Furthermore, I'd like to put in some small google ads to help pay for server costs (and honestly, it's either that or a donation button which never gets used).

Will seems to be adding canonical dungeons on a semi-regular basis, so I'm happy for that.

There's many other things I'd like to see added: monster races, expanded origins, the "dream twister," and a bank or a marketplace, among many others. As it stands, though, I feel the need to maintain what's in place (by doing what I suggested above) before adding on anything supplemental to HC.

But before I do anything, does anyone have any opinions on these proposed changes? HC is a community site, and I want to keep it that way. If you do have thoughts, please post them here and not in the shoutbox (where they will quickly disappear).

I really hope I'm not the only dummy who thinks this but...cam we simply the mount system? I'm so confused about how to just get a regular old horse that I'm kinda running in circles.

Actually, making a lot of things simplier would help...

I may rarely ever show up, but whenever I do come on and see what changes have been made, I've always been for some and against others, despite it having no bearings on myself, but I try to take an objective look at things, and comparing this to the current set up and system, it's a massive improvement and standardization of Treasure creation, which gets a two big thumbs up from me.

After reading over your proposed changes, I think they're great. HC is in for some awesome stuff, and a bright future.

If I may provide my input, I think Hylian Honor should be deleted. In its place, maybe members shouldn't be required to use all of their PWC on creation. That way you can weaken them how you like, and you don't have to go with a full powered character if you don't want to.

Everything else looks pretty good though. I'm really liking what you're doing with the place Guy! Keep up the good work!

All in all, I say go ahead for all of these prospective changes.
I think Double's idea about members not being required to use all of their PWC points on creation makes a better alternative for the Hylian Honor.

Hylian Honor should stay. It's set up to be a challenge towards the roleplayers, to make a character different and more complex from the norm. It's not required of RPers if they don't want but there's always going to be someone looking for the challenge. When Rib and Toko put it forth, they did so knowing it wouldn't be as popular because it IS a challenge to create such a character. But it by no means breaks things for the current roleplayers, so it's removal doesn't strike me as necessary.

I'm here and in favor of most of the above changes. I'm also with Double in that the ability to just not use all your points would be pretty cool with me.

Thank you very much for the input thus far. I'm glad to hear most of these propositions seem to being met well.

I've already begun working on the new Library, mostly trying to make its appearance look similar to that of the forums. (It isn't as easy as I initially expected.) You can see it by clicking the Library button underneath the banner. I'm hoping that eventually I can incorporate all of the banner and buttons you see up top onto the top of the Library as well. Anyway, we'll still be using the thread-based LoT for at least a few more weeks. Filling out the new Library with revamped treasures will take a lot of time...

(Coincidentally, the Library button previously led to a page which can now be viewed at the url: hyrulecastle.org/library_previous. I left that in-tact just in case anyone needs something from it.)

What would you like to see made simpler, specifically? What should be done to make it simpler...?

Seeing how horses are common and the "default" steed, I could see giving them a static cost (instead of fluctuating PWC cost like most treasures). Would that help?

I suppose you're right, there isn't any major reason to remove it... so it'll remain as an option for those prefer it. I will, however, probably take all the Hylian Honor characters and merge them into the Accepted Characters--letting the [Ascetic] or [Devoted] tags in the title serve as the distinction instead. What would you think of that?

EDIT: (I do agree with double and the others, though. A character won't be required to use all of its PWC points, regardless of whether or not it's going for a HH.)

Positions & Staff: I'm in favor of most of these changes, but I'm not fond of the idea that Veterans are now pretty much grading monkeys, even if it's on a voluntary basis. Grading is my least favourite part of my job as things are, and it feels more like a sword of Damocles than a perk to me- it seems like an open door for staff to say 'we don't have time to do this grading- you're a Vet, YOU do it.' Consequently, this new Veteranship seems to have little point to me.

Library of treasures: Minor, but I'd like to point out that Crossbow is no longer a Treasure. It's now a Mundane-tier item.
More major: I LOVE the idea of making 'Hero's Pick' or 'Staple Treasures' items. In fact, a little while ago I had the idea to make a thread featuring 'classes;' while I know HC doesn't use a class system, I could use it to propose 'charactery archetypes' like the Healer, the Berserker, or the Elemental Specialist: suggesting races, PWC configurations, and treasures that would fit it. I could definitely help out with setting that up if needed.
I'm on the fence about increasing the PWC though. Especially 12 points seems excessive.

Sub-accounts: I've given my opinion on these many times before, so I don't feel the need to say more on that.
Hylian Honour: I'm indifferent on that. As long as this attitude of 'Hylian Honour characters are deeper and more well-thought-out than normal characters are' that some people seem to have, is thrown out the fifth-story window, then I honestly don't care if it stays or goes.

Guide and F.A.Q: I vote in favour.

Condensing the Forums: Considering I'm the one who brought this up in the past, I don't think I have to say much about this. If you feel Ylisse and/or its structure is a problem, let me know.

Hmm... I would never intend for Veterans to be treated like "grading monkeys," but, I can't speak for everyone... I would mostly hope that, if Staff members weren't online, it wouldn't take as long for something to get graded; or if Will and I RP'd together, for instance, someone other than fcg could grade it if need be.

Now that you mention it, though, I think you're right in that they should maintain more of the benefits they currently have. I could see them keeping the +5 to PWC, and having Regulars and Newbies keep the +4 and +3 currently in place. There's no need to retcon that, really.

A while back, Bitoko mentioned the idea of "buying" monster races. If you wanted to make a Darknut character, for example, you'd have to sacrifice 100 rupees (or whatever the cost would be) from between your characters. Once you made that Darknut character, however, you'd be able to make additional Darknuts normally. What would you (or anyone else reading this) thinking of doing something similar for what are currently Vet-exclusive races? For Vets, the races would still be free, but Regulars would have to expend a certain amount of rupees (or perhaps complete a specific quest) to gain access to one of these special races. This would, hypothetically, remove the "wall" to races, while still giving Veterans benefit in using them more easily. What would you think of that?

Do you have any other, more specific suggestions as to what could be done with Vets?

Ah, you're right. My mistake.

Hmm. I originally thought 13, before lowering it to 12. As things currently stand, a Veteran with access to a Veteran race can make a character with a total of 10 points (or 11 if they choose to make a Minish)... Anything much lower than 12 wouldn't serve a purpose.

The permanent increase I would expect to cost 200-300 rupees or so, at least. Consider this will (in the new system) give only a 5-20 rupee discount on individual treasures, it seems far from exploitable. You'd literally have to gain dozens of treasures based on the increased area of PWC to make it profitable in terms of rupees spent. And, from what Quill's written on PWC and changed up the LoT, it doesn't seem like increasing PWC otherwise has much benefit.

Does that make things seem more reasonable? Or does it still seem like too much?

Ylisse is taking almost no real estate on the main index, is situated at the bottom, and at least seems to be bringing in more activity to HC as a whole. That doesn't exactly sound like a problem to me.[/quote]

I like the idea of 'buying' the Vet Races. It gives Newbies and Regulars something to do with their rupees other than buying treasures, which is something I've been advocating. Much like yourself, I can't speak for everyone, but I'd be on board with that. I think keeping the 5+, 4+ and 3+ points is a VERY good idea, as it gives Veterans a permanent discount on Treasures compared to Regulars and Newbies, a discount that can be applied however the Veteran chooses.

Looking at the expanding PWC like you explained it, I think I can get behind that. Maybe set a base price for the first increase, and then charge an additional 25 or 50 rupees for every next upgrade? So it'd be 100, 125/150, 150/200, etc?

Indeed. I was toying with the idea of having it increase by 50 every time. But, I believe it should start above 100--at least at 150. It seems like something like permanently increasing your PWC (without occupying a major treasure slot) should be more expensive than (almost) any other treasure you can get, even with the first +1.

So, I guess the +3/+4/+5 bonus will remain as-is. I'll incorporate buying the bonus races into the LoT and Character Creation as I update those.

Well, I guess that means I can get behind all of these proposed changes, then. Any word on the Origin System changes that I proposed the other week?

As it stands, I definitely want to make it clearly stated that a character need not use all the PWC points he's given. It should always be optional to use a benefit, really. It wouldn't be much of a benefit if you HAD to use it. (Likewise, it should be obvious that anything blatantly debilitating shouldn't cost you anything, but... I digress)

...Many seem to be in favor of adding that, and just outright removing HH. Even so, if there's even one person who passionately wants to use it, I'm hesitant to remove something optional like that. Someone else can make a poll about it, or something, but for right now, I personally want to focus on other matters.

woot

I haven't started updating the Character Creation system yet, but when I do, I intend to incorporate what you suggested. I hope to make our current Origins guidelines, but not requirements. Hylians in particular could hail from many different places, being the most populous race. That said, some alternative Origins--like a Subrosian living in Kokiri forest, or any kind of "halfbreed"--would of course be out of the question. I'd also like to expand the origins to include the larger map, like you suggested.

(Actually, now that I think about it... Maybe the default Origins should be required only for Newcomers?)

Each race will be giving more Racial Perk options, and you'll indeed be able to indeed pick from an assortment. (If I recall correctly, you said someone suggested that a long time ago. If I'm not mistaken, that was me. I was incorporating them into the LoT2 before the information was all lost...) Some treasures, most obviously Magic Proficiency, wouldn't be an option depending on a character's an Origin.

While indeed you and I haven't seen eye to eye, Guy, (Oh god, try saying that out loud) None of these ideas made me wonder what the point was, nor question it. All these propositions are things that could undoubtedly use a change. (As of the vet revision with BP)

That said. What about if there were one or two races that Vets actually had to buy? I'm not sure about what example would work, but it was just an idea that popped into my head. But besides this, my initial scepticisms were entirely wrong and I look forward to seeing what you plan to do.

Maybe for the first character. I'm not sure about making it mandatory for ALL characters, but I do think it's a good idea.

Yeah, it was you. I just brought it back up because as far as I knew nothing was being done with it and I did like the idea - as did many others as I recall.

Should veterans be able to accept quests too (Optionally of course)? This may have already been implied by what you said previously, in which case I apologize, but with the much smaller staff now, it seems like it would be a useful ability for them to have. And I mean, to my knowledge, quest accepting isn't so much a tedious task as grading is.

Hm. That might be appropriate with Darknut and Wizzrobe, assuming those races eventually become available. (They are, after all, basically killing machines which exist to either be good at physical combat or magical combat.)

True. Making it mandatory for only the first character seems better than my idea.

Oh, yes. I should have specified that, but I indeed meant for Veterans to have the ability to both accept quests and grade quests.



As things currently stand, I'm working on implementing all of the ideas I mentioned in the first post (with minor modifications mostly due to feedback given thus far). The forums are, of course, already condensed. Sub-accounts have been removed. I'm currently working on the new LoT; the software is in place and the skin has been manually modified to look more like HC (and less like Wikipedia). I'm not in the process of adding the treasures themselves (and other pages which support the treasure pages, such as templates and categories). After that's done (or nearing completion), I will then make the new Guide thread, which will explain the new format for Newcomer/Regular/Veteran.

I'm still debating on whether or not the HH will stay in some form. At the very least, it would see a renaming to make HH characters not seem inherently superior.