A potential fix to Rupees & Professions

Basically, if you get rid of the origins systems, you're giving everyone a carte blanche to do whatever they please for backstory and character creation. And no offense, but some of the character ideas already spawned by people trying to get around the origins restrictions are just really, really ridiculous... and most of those characters get used in one thread that may or may not get complete (not counting the billions of dungeon threads) and are forgotten. The whole "it sounds like a good idea at the time" Rib's brought up in his roleplay blog posts.

Get rid of the origins system and you're going to see a LOT more of those characters. And really it's just a waste of space and a waste of time. So while a rebalancing or tweaking of the origins system would be okay (personally I'm fine with it as is)... getting rid of the whole thing is just going to give you a whole new source for headaches and hassles.

Well, it's more of a headache that this could happen.

"I want to play as a Hylian who lives in the eastern seas.

"NOPE. He has to be from one of these spots."

You see the problem? You're forcing people to start in one of these four or five spots and it's just pointlessly restrictive. I say get rid of the origins and give people choices. Also, I like the idea of having a pool of racial treasures (like 5 or 6) and picking two.

I think the point R.D. was getting at was largely this: the further you deviate from the 'lore' of the Zelda universe, the less the character seems to belong in Zelda and, consequently, the site. The lore is indeed the language we use to create and communicate through our characters, and I'm personally not a fan of trying to bend it just so you can fit whatever concept you have into the context of Zelda. I don't think following the lines of the game universe (or the site's original take on Zelda) hinders or halts creativity, I think it adds to it.

But that's just my opinion, and whether or not people agree is another thing entirely. It's seen the best results, from my experience, but regardless, I think that's what R.D. was trying to get across.

I'm not saying its for making characters that don't fit in with the lore. Now.... As an example. Let's just say I want to make a character who trained in the eastern seas. This is something entirely possible within the lore, yet by the current origin system, this is impossible. It only limits what the RPers can do, and on the topic of the characters being completely strange, that's what the moderation team is for.

I'm going to be told I'm overreacting but I'm not used to having people walk over me like this.

As someone who owns not one but two characters that exist outside the normal origins system (and I may or may not be the person you were talking about here), as well as mostly being active in the Classic Dungeon forum, I take offense to this comment. If Dungeon threads aren't good enough for you, then that's your problem- last I checked with the mods they were canon. We're all equals here, RD, and just because I choose to RP differently from you does not mean my RPing or my characters are 'ridiculous' or pointless. And with me are several others.

Toko himself read over the backstory for my Ikanan living Hylians and approved them after that. Doesn't sound ridiculous to me. A carte blanche doesn't exist because we still have mods, and this is precisely why they're there- to make sure stuff outside the existing boundaries makes sense. That's why complete profiles aren't automatically moved into accepted characters. Why we have to wait for that, you know?

I personally have experienced the origin system (or rather, the execution of it) as restricting and would not mind seeing it redone or at least expanded on.

I'm sorry, but I have to disagree with the whole "have to be approved" part because mods have NOT proven themselves to be a good quality check. You've got too many characters slipping through the cracks that don't really fit, like Will said, and the mods aren't really willing to step up to the plate and say "This doesn't pass because it's too weird."

I understand that people find ideas interesting, but some of these ideas just don't really fit in with everything. Vampires. The sweet, peaceful Kokiri being "assassins". Where does the line get drawn at? Who's the one drawing the line? Because honestly, I don't see the moderators drawing that line. Admittedly I'm not around long enough to get a perfect gauge of all that, but I know that it's there.

So, getting back to what I said: Tweaking the origin system would be fine. Removing it outright is a bad idea that you will come to regret in the long run.

That's not what Will said. He said "submitted" not "accepted." This in no way means they just said "Fuck it, let's let them go through anyways."

So, we must have someone arbitrarily decided what is "creative and fun" and what is too much for other people too handle? I just... don't understand how that affects you so negatively. And why is has to be about how it affects you. If someone so chose, they never, EVER have to come into contact with any "zany" characters, nor read the threads they are part of. I understand not having superhuman abilities, or being related to canon characters, etc, because then that just leads to problems for other reasons. But why must all Kokiri be sweet and peaceful? Is every human the same? Every species of animal? Every race has their nutjobs, the people on the edge of the bell curve. I just don't get why its one persons right to say what is okay for others to have fun with, and what's not. Because everyone has fun in there own way, and whats fun to one, isn't to another.

Anyways, I would like a change to Origins myself. Not a complete removal, but a bit more freedom. Even just with the PWC of places.

A slight example, RD, I have a COMPLETELY zany character named Masaro. He's absolutely nuts and what most people would consider a "Joke character". He may be. But I play him in all seriousnous and the goofy things that happen are also done in a serious way. Funny part? He's in my top three characters I've made in terms of how much I enjoy playing him. Out of 18 characters? The joke guy's doing pretty good.

Also, we can name an in-game example of kokiri not being all cheery and happy. Mido. That arrogant bastard shows that like most other races, there can be a personality variance among them. All it takes for a kokiri to want to be an assassin is this. "Hm. That sword helped me fight off a wolfos. I should get good with this thing for survival reasons. I wonder if I could make money with it... " Additionally, I've played with this Assassin kokiri. Hes a phenomenal RPer.

My last point is a suggestion for the racial origins and stuff.

-step one, choose a place. (as an example, let's say the eastern seas, as my example from prior)

-step two, choose a PWC base from the racial options. (Hylian, so as a... Let's go with pirate, he's got 2/1/1 as his base.

-step three, choose two of the racial treasures from the race's list (Pirate, so let's go with the Spin attack, sense classic combo.

Done. I like this method because it's like a checkbox test. Write a place. Choose one of these three (or less, depending on race), and check two treasures. That way it's unique, and customizable, and even the newbies who come in will feel that they've made an original character.

Kinda gotta agree with Tsu here, If someone reads the character profile and decides "Hey this character wouldn't really fit in this RP", then say so. Most of us have characters that won't fit into some sort of RP or another; they could be too dumb/jokey to fit into a serious, Grimdark RP, too weak and inexperienced to be in a combat RP, too selfish to bother with a "charitable" RP, etc.

More on topic though, I agree with Will, leave the origins in place, but accept exceptions on a case-by-case basis. BP's two characters (the ones outside of origins) were accepted because they made sense in canon (with a few minor details worked out), just as Tsu's pirate example would be entirely possible as well. Both of them are/would be exceptions to the system, but as we've seen most characters fit in well.

I tend to agree with Rising Dragon on this one, guys. While some of what he said could have been phrased more tactfully, I'd like to remind everyone that everyone's opinion is valid here, and that goes for him just as much as the rest of us. I agree that we have let some things go through that maybe should not have, because we have made mistakes in the past. There are things that I would like to remove from the library and such (such as vampires, because honestly they don't fit well, and they really just don't see any use anyways) and other things.

As for "assassin" kokiri, I am of the opinion that they are children. They are children of the Deku Tree and being such wouldn't normally resort to violence of that kind. Normally I might even say that, because they are largely restricted to a single area in the games, they don't quite fit as a race on HC. Certainly Mido displayed the behavior of a bully, but his behavior was childish, and while it was mean spirited, I wouldn't necessarily call it malicious; not nearly enough to turn him into someone that is bloodthirsty. He acted like a little bully kid, even after you had grown up as link and returned. It seems to me that theirs are the minds of children, despite their agelessness, not murderous assassins or other such twisted things.

"Zany" characters are perfectly fine. However, when the level of zany gets to the point of harming the integrity of Hyrule Castle's context, as fun as they may be to roleplay, they might not necessarily belong on Hyrule Castle. I'm not saying that there are such characters now, but regardless, if Origins were to be removed, there would be a lack of scale as to what is acceptable for Hyrule Castle.

Now, when I say that I am going to be going through the library of treasures and becoming stricter on characters and such, I don't think that it will be a retroactive thing for current characters, because I understand how much work and heart was put into each and every one of them. If, for instance, I took away vampires, I wouldn't force characters who are vampires to change and whatnot, just not allow new ones. Now, perhaps that could change if it becomes an issue.

Errr. On the Kokiri thing I may have to disagree >.> saying "Kokiri can't be killers because they're childish" doesn't work. There have been MANY child psychopaths and killers throughout history, and it's entirely realistic that they don't follow the norm. Also, you said it yourself. Normally. A lot of the point of RPing is that you aren't playing mr average joe. Our characters aren't the normal people unless made so, thus within reason, it makes sense for there to be a couple oddballs.

After discussing this with all present staff, we have decided that as they are, Kokiri do not make sense to be as common as they are. This is due to their various behavioral patterns, as well as the actions taken by the Great Deku Tree that can be observed from the games. It's been decided that it is uncharacteristic for many Kokiri to be leaving the Kokiri forest, and so we've decided to make them slightly more rare. That said Kokiri will be changed to a Regular only race.

Likewise, Koroks also don't much make sense as a Veteran race. Once again, this is due to context reasons, as in The Wind Waker they were meant to go out into the world and proliferate. As such, they will be getting a PWC reduction to 1/1/2 and will be made a Regular accessible race instead. They will preserve their racials as they are.

Question to the mods: Ever seen Investigation Discovery's (or whatever the channel is called in your country) show Killer Kids? Disturbing stuff. It DOES happen. And more than we think. So I don't see why everyone is suddenly making a big deal out of a Kokiri Assassin. On that note, when did that even become the point of this thread?

Secondly, I agree with both Raz/Senpai and Tsu. 1). You don't HAVE to RP with zany characters or characters the concept of which you don't like. If you don't like my pseudo-mute, antisocial and self-righteous Gerudo, don't accept her into your RP and don't sign up for an RP with her. It's not just on this site- a LOT of people seem to forget there is this option in life.

2). Considering our PCs have an above average to far above average to legendary PWC score depending on your rank, I was under the impression some 'unusual' characters could be made. That way not all Hylian Guard characters are generic soldiers like the ones in the game, and not all Gorons are dim-witted powerhouses. I mean, if at the core of the PWC we can deviate, then I don't see why we can't on the 'flavor text' (for lack of a better term).

Oh, you're right. For some reason I was thinking "racial ability slot" instead of "role-play slot."

Somewhat ironically, I was reading a staff thread before I got back to my own topic this morning, and ending up advocating the notion that separate role-plays should be possible with the same character. (To further the irony, that thread was seemingly made at Rib Steak's mention here of creating another thread on the matter.) Hopefully at least what Tsu suggested will be possible, though ideally I'd like to effectively remove the limit of "one character, one canon thread" entirely.

Paraphrase: "I don't think restrictions restrict creativity."

I am completely inline with Blondie, here. I am throwing all of my support behind this notion.

We never had an origins system on HS. If something truly seems ridiculous enough to not warrant a character, our moderators should be sharp enough when checking the character to point out anything which seems overly ridiculous. Origins have a purpose, but I believe that purpose is as suggestions rather than laws.

Yup. The same applies to characters which will never even been used in role-plays (even if they were hella fun to make...).

Exactly. I have to say I'm rather annoyed with the notion which has been adamantly propagating as of late... that everything has to be realistic, and expected, and not creative or outlandish. How do so many people forget this is based on the story of a 12-year-old boy using a wooden sword to single-handedly slay a seemingly endless army of monsters, including an immortal demonic boar twelve times his superior in size, strength, and magical aptitude?

...The only qualitative issue everyone seems to consistently feel should be removed is the Vampire treasure, and I can agree with that. Regardless, SM, especially Tsu, and others are exactly right about an assassin Kokiri. While unusual and wildly atypical, perhaps, it is possible. Player-characters on HC, MS, and HS were all designed to be extraordinary, paragons, or vastly unusual--and as such I don't see why a kokiri who kills things for money is impossible to the extent that it shouldn't be allowed even once.

I'm going to assume you mean "staff who were available on July 4th when I arbitrarily felt like changing this and weren't on a 12-hour shift."

Whatever, man. Whatever. I'm sure I missed out on 90% of the discussion because everyone was using the cbox, which doesn't keep permanent records. I'm annoyed, but I really don't care that much. I'm mostly amused by the fact you'll make an announcement of announcement in Official Business and say everyone has to quickly go read it, but make an announcement like this on the fourth page of a Suggestion Bin thread it originally had nothing to do with.

...Anyway, why is my suggestion thread even being used to discuss origins, racial issues, only-realistic-boring-characters-should-be-allowed, and miscellaneous drama?

Alright, I'm probably making a big enemy here but I'm going to speak my mind 'Toko. I'm not entirely sure you're being honest with us here, and I think you are just trying to make this argument moot because you know you can't win.

Your argument against violent Kokiri clearly has a ton of backlash from most members of HC so rather than admit defeat you've just decided to make Kokiri rarer by making them a regular race and Koroks more common by bumping it down from veteran to regular.

From here, it just looks like you just can't say "I'm sorry, I was wrong" or "To me this doesn't make much sense but I guess you guys see something I don't" and just made the race less likely to be played by not allowing some members to play them and when they do become playable, making more races available at the same time to compete for attention.

It just seems that rather than admit defeat, you'd take away a race that's pretty unique (and because of their physiology and bodies can't be played in a lot of ways anyway) and just say "If I can't change the way you're playing these guys, I'll just make sure that less of them are played"

So pretty much 'Toko, I'm seeing this last change as petty, childish. Dick move man.

If these are the kind of changes you're making, I'd hate to see the end result of them; and if they're as bad and petty as this, I'm not sure I want to role-play here anymore.

PS: I noticed in that post you didn't even try to bring up the "violent Kokiri" argument but rather just gave an announcement here (on the fourth page of a suggestion bin thread rather than, you know, in the official business forum in it's own topic, as it clearly should've been) that on the surface seems to only seems to be relevant in that Kokiri are involved. Not only that a massive a**hole move, but it doesn't even begin to cover up the real reason it was posted.

Edited for correctness

Willow, Toko, Eev, any other mods, no offense...

but this is done on such short notice that you couldn't even wait a day to let it sink in and wait for Guy's input, nor have you asked us, the members who have to use this new rule, for our opinion. I don't approve of the wording Raz chose, but this is exactly the kind of stuff Foe did on FEP and I can't say I'm too amused by it.

With this particular change I don't care enough to get wound up over it, but I thought I'd say it anyway. Before bigger changes come along causing people (not just me) to not care enough in general to bother with the site anymore.