Remove Sub-Accounts?

But for those of us who honestly don't care about trophies and are just here to RP, that argument is entirely null. I'm not changing my vote- I still think they add nothing, as soon as you use two characters not attached to each other in one RP you've defeated the entire point of having the sub-accounts, and it's far too easy to forget to select the appropriate account when you're on a posting spree.

Adding to this, I like to be able to switch from one character's RP to the next easily. I can't do this when using sub-accounts, because I only have links to the character in question's own RPing threads in the proper signatures. This makes maybe not so much creating and maintaining the characters, but the actual RPing, a hassle.

This is not to say that maintaining isn't a problem, though. If I am to update my signatures after each RP, I have to log into each of the characters separately and change their signatures from their own account. In addition, I still have characters that I have no avatars for, and I outright refuse to use a sub-account that is not properly and fully set up.

If sub-accounts stay, I foresee a significant drop in my in-character activity in the near future. Too many annoyances for, as far as I'm concerned, no gain.

Blonde Panther has eloquently described one of the issues with which I agree. It's ridiculous to have to do something like that, even in a simple two-character thread. I've had a Hylian and Deku Scrub character interact with each other extensively within one small role-play thread, and I couldn't imagine being able to do the same thing by having to lod out and log back in with every post (let alone having to do this with other characters in other RPs).

Not only is it tedious, but I can't play the two characters off each other--and that was the most enjoyable part of having them together. That is, I couldn't describe them both doing something in the same sentence, or even the same paragraph. That's just silly, and gets in the way of good, enjoyable RPing.

I should preface by saying that, if the site votes for it, I'm quite fine with having sub-accounts be taken down. And even in the event of a tie or a very close vote, as things are shaping up to be, removing sub-accounts is probably the "safe-bet". If it's very close, I would expect either a re-vote or simply taking the safer route, but it's not up to me.

That said, I would like to at least clarify a couple of things. Relating to what you said, Guy, if you were in an RP with 2 of your own characters, we wouldn't expect you to need to make 2 separate posts to represent each separate character, you could simply combine them under a single post as you've always done. Furthermore, even if you did have to do that, you don't need to log out and log back in to post something--you can change which sub-account is being posted from by selecting them from the drop-down "Post As User" that appears below the posting box.

With that in mind, it is recognized that this portion of sub-accounts is the most confusing aspect and is recognized as an inherent flaw, but thankfully it is not quite as bad as having to log-out and log-in every time you wish to switch a post. I don't mean to "sway your vote" by telling anyone this, but it deserves clarification at the very least.

The other thing I would bring up is that part of the reason why the staff in particular was/is so keen on implementing this is because it does add value to the site, we think, beyond just the individual member's experience. This may send selfish to you, but it was a bonus we hoped to invest and return to the members in a positive way. Whether or not you like Trophy points, like having unique signatures for each character, like having separate avatars, is going to be subjective to the roleplayer.

The staff felt, though, that some of the benefits went beyond that, like with the things that darklink28 and Quill posted on the previous page. We could do specific trophies, we could apply software that allows us to objectively track rupees, you could record dungeon progress in an actual log, and so on. It'd also let the staff see which characters are being used more, where more RPs are taking place, and other things like that. I understand that on their own, those things are pretty small and not strong enough to hold this entire argument up. Together, though, you could have something cool.

In some sense, the staff felt that the addition was more helpful to them from a site-wide perspective than anything else, which partially explains why the staff would have such audacity in daring to name it mandatory. I'm not saying it excuses it, settles the debate, or anything like that--we know it was handled poorly--but it's an explanation at the very, very least.

That said, vote as you please. We will respect it.

I'll just say that what quill says makes a lot of sense about data that was not able to be collected before, and it could enrich the RP system by giving the staff the ability to add even more to HC's roleplay.

I agree wholeheartedly, and this discussion shouldn't be about how things were handled but rather the benefits going forward. And there are probably a lot, many that are unrealized even now.

I think so much of the resistance you see though is because of the initial miscommunication and implementation of them, and not the actual idea of sub-accounts themselves.

I went and made my own sub-account just randomly. It was really overstated how complicated it would be, even if you'd have a bunch of characters.

I will myself admit that at first I viewed it as overly complicated and stupid without even trying it out, and that wasn't right. Now that I've seen the system and how it works, I don't think it's overly complicated. It could add a ton of value, and you would see nothing like it at any other RP site. You would really set yourselves apart, especially since you want to focus solely on RP right now. It would also be useful for what Quill has said quite a few times and Willow, and allow you to track activity in certain areas, not just rupees.

I feel the easiest way to deal with the use of multiple owned characters via subaccount is to use the subaccount of the character whose point of view you're following. For example, if I have Rua and Ayls both in a thread and present, if I was following Rua's perspective, I'd use his account and note what Ayls does as he sees it and his thought processes on the matter, and vice versa--if I follow Ayls perspective, I'd use her account and note her thought processes and how she sees the actions.

I took a look at the "Sub-accounts Rules and Functions" post, and there's nothing in there that says you NEED to have that kind of information in the signature. Granted, a lot of people (including myself) could take enjoyment from organizing personal information in a sub-account's signature like that, but if you're not one of those people, if you're worried about it being another thing you have to keep updated, you don't need to have that stuff in there. My sub-accounts, for example, only have a link to their respective character sheets in their siggies and a few quotes I thought fit them pretty well. I don't have to update them; there's nothing additional I need to do.

And I think looking at the things we could do with sub-accounts as useless "gimmicks" is a little unfair. If they add anything to the RP experience (not necessarily the RP itself, but just the experience of being here) for some people (not necessarily everyone- you could find them pointless and easily ignore them, but there could be other people who enjoy that kind of thing), then I would consider them worthwhile.

Now, as for the concern with RP'ing multiple characters in one post.... I have some experience with that. I RP Marcus and Loft together a lot, so I feel like I can address that. It hasn't been an issue at all. I write my post like I usually do, and I pick the sub-account of whichever character I feel I focused on more. It's not a problem, and it isn't awkward to do. If they were ALWAYS together, like BP's Horus and Luna, I would make them one single sub-account; because like you said, Squish, there's no point in having two sub-accounts if you're only going to ever use one. However, Marcus and Loft RP on their own enough of the time for me to think that hey; it's worth it making two sub-accounts. At this very moment, for example, Marcus is in Lavaclaw, Loft is in Skyview, and they're together in the Great Bay Temple. I have them posting separately, using their sub-accounts, and together, deciding each post which character was more dominent. It hasn't been an issue.

Hope that helps, Squish c:

I'm well aware that having elaborate signatures is optional, but NOT having them beats the point to me. The additional space to detail things was the only reason I was even marginally willing to give sub-accounts a try, but it's far more trouble than it's worth to keep up with it. And if I still have to open up the character's profile in a separate tab, then the sub-accounts haven't made ANYTHING easier.

What you guys are saying about using multiple characters in one RP makes SENSE, but if you're not in Horus and Luna's situation then the point of the subaccount is still beaten. I know Quill alternates between posting as Marcus and posting as Loft, but if you're going to throw off post count and information gathering anyway then why not just post from your main account?

And like I said, not having immediate access to ALL my active RPs in every in-character post is a big red flag that having sub-accounts is not worth the trouble for me. It's one thing that it doesn't add anything to my roleplaying, but taking away convenience is another thing altogether.

Well, like I said, if you're one of the people who prefers to have lots of information in their signatures, go right ahead. It's really up to you, just like it's always been, how much you put into your signature. If you want to do it, do it. If not, don't do it. How much you invest in your sig is your business; I was just saying that, for people who don't want to put that kind of effort in, they don't have to. They've never had to- the only rule about signatures is that you need links to each character sheet. The other stuff, while nice, is all completely optional. We're probably not going to make elaborate signatures mandatory- not in sub accounts or main accounts.

And to be frank, there's a danger of over-estimating just how much effort it takes to update something. Think of how often a thread has actually been completed. I RP a LOT, and I've been doing so for years, but if you look in my sig, there aren't that many completed threads in there. Finishing a thread isn't exactly a common event, just based on how many threads die or go inactive or even just considering how loooooong they take to finish. Even if everyone involved is active, RP threads aren't exactly a one-week thing. It takes me maybe three minutes, tops, to edit my two characters' Sheets and my Signature with an updated rupee count and an additional treasure. That's not that much effort, especially when you think about how often you're actually going to do that. In all honesty, the only time-consuming bit would be making the elaborate signatures in the first place; actually maintaining them isn't difficult.

It wouldn't throw off post count that much. In threads where I use both my sub-accounts, I alternate pretty much 50-50 between the two of them, maybe leaning a bit more heavily towards Marcus. There's still a great deal of accurate data to be had from that; the only thing that could be thrown off is the exact post count. Everything else; location, who's used more, and general activity levels are still accurate. Post count isn't the only thing that this could be used for, remember.

At this point subaccounts are either going to become optional or they will be completely removed. Expect a new thread soon.

Better they be completely removed than optional, imo. We can't really do benefits if only a fraction of the member population is using the sub-accounts, and if they were optional, we'd have to make a new rules thread and explain their benefits while still insisting that they're completely optional. It's honestly more messy than leaving them out, and if they're optional there won't be any worthwhile benefits, outside of the subjective "I just like having an avatar for each character" thing. If we've gotten to either optional or gone, I'd push for gone.

I'm still waiting for someone to give a rebuttal to this.

But I'm with Quill on them being gone instead of being optional. Either is better than them being mandatory, in my opinion.

Since the matter has been decided, it doesn't make much sense to me for the debate to continue, save for the purpose of being argumentative. Some people, I suspect, could argue either for or against this all the way to the grave. Some members may feel differently, but I personally don't see the point in dragging this out--kicking and screaming--for weeks on end after the decision has come and passed.

Speaking of decisions being made, though: since Toko would like to take this up in another topic, consider this one closed.