Double spinning Lariat [Review]

Okeedoke. Let's put this here and see how that goes.

`Double Spinning Lariat
Original: Tsubori , Technique - offense
[WeaponBase], [Fist]

P5: 40 rupees
P4: 70 rupees
P3: 100 rupees

Prerequisites: User must be at least power 3.

A mighty attack to be sure, the Double Spinning Lariat is a special fighting move renowned for it's effectiveness in both a fist fighter and armed fighter's arsenals. The technique made fame during a mayoral election in some town or another in Northern Hyrule. With the votes ending in a perfect tie, the decision was made via a fighting match to the KO. The winning candidate used this move to achieve victory and his position.

How the technique works is rather bizarre. The user must place their feet about a foot apart, then start spinning with both arms outstretched. The spin may be done from a standstill or be launched into a direction for about five meters. During these two full 360 degree spins, a strange force pulls those within about a three foot range towards the spin, as if gravity is somehow being centered on the fighter.

This pulls the victim into the spin and depending on where in the two spins they entered, they'll be hit four to six times as they get bounced around the attack before the spins and the person (or persons) are launched a few meters back from the attacker.

Hm. Seems good, but you could make this treasure be an addition to the Spin Attack treasure. This seems to be basically just a Spin Attack with gravity-powers.

Prices seem fine, and P3 makes sense (enough power to warp gravity). What's your opinion on the "make this into an upgrade of the Spin Attack" idea?

I definitely agree with that. Would it decrease the prices at all, though if it were simply an "add on" as opposed to a full blown treasure?

That makes sense. P3 already makes it exclusive to people with high power, so I'm thinking maybe... 50-35-20?

Sounds good to me. We need a third set of eyes on this though, right?

Ya.

Maybe also a lag/cool-down time, I'm thinking. Can it be repeated again and again? What's the time like between the start of the spinning and the gravity-sucking? Once the technique ends, can the user just hop forward and do it again, creating an Ice-Climbers like chain? Does dizziness enter in? Etc.

Also, you say the user needs to "extend both arms." I get how that would work with unarmed users. Can people with only one weapon, say a sword-user, use this move?

While we're in the middle of the barrage I'll go ahead and add my thoughts.

If you had a weapon would this 3-feet radius extend from their body, hands, or end of their weapon? Similar to Willow's question, can this be resisted at all?

I have this image of someone spinning a deadly sharp object and forcefully sucking someone directly into the path of their blade. It would be an instant kill, really.

I'd say it could be resisted via enough weight or anchoring, and I figured the gravity well would be from the end of the hands, not the weapon. That way, bigger people will have a bigger and more meaningful gravity pull, as is realistic (For this kinda thing). And for one handed fighters, it still works fine, some of the damage may instead be with the fist though. As an example, Chimera, the character receiving the treasure, uses a scimitar and buckler. That means the hits alternate between the shield hitting and the sword. I'd say the skill is like any other in that excessive use in a row will wear the user down. Also, similar to the normal spin attack, Dizziness probably wouldn't be a factor. Remember, this isn't ten spins like with the hurricane spin or something, it's only two.

Speaking of the hurricane spin... Something I looked over in the library is that very few techniques actually have a cool down time. I'm not really sure why that would also factor in on this one.

And to Rib's point, it's no more "Insta-kill" than using helm-splitter on a non-helmetted enemy. The person isn't stunned or anything as they're being sucked in. They can still block.

They're just being pulled in if they're in that range. That makes sense, although when you edit the description you should put some kind of frame of reference as to how strong the pull is. As another note: does the user's Power score has some kind of effect on it?

Spin Attack unleashes a wave of energy. I'm wondering if the user could choose to either shoot out the energy wave or to activate the gravity effect. Thoughts?

Something that confuses me is that "two spins with two appendages may hit up to six times." I understand that they'd be held in place by the gravity effect, but even so, if they entered into the attack at the very beginning, wouldn't they only be hit four times? You say that it's because they're being "knocked around the attack" so as to increase the hit count, but I'm having trouble seeing how that would work. Can you please explain it? Thanks.

Gah, foiled when asked about logic Now, the attack this is based upon actually does hit about 6 or more times, but it more or less uses suspension of disbelief to go "You hit him lots!" The best I could explain it as... would be that in a "Best case scenario" You're hitting them off the start of the spin with your left hand, then as you do the spin, you finish with your right hand? So it'd be more like 2.2 spins. THAT MAKE ANY SENSE OR TSU BE CRAZY?

And I like the ability to choose if gravity pull or energy blast.

Alright, I'll move it down to four. Anything else anyone has on their mind?

Two things on my end.

Given that Spin Attack only requires a Power of 2 to use, I don't see why this should be restricted to only 3+

Similarly, since Spin Attack is already free to the majority of its users, I don't see a reason to slash the prices as far as Quill brought up earlier, though some would be fine. My recommendation would be:

P5: 35
P4: 50
P3: 70
P2: 90

Rib, as said before, the 3+ Power is required because you're literally bending gravity around you. The effect is far greater and would require more Power than a standard spin attack.

And also, I should mention that Spin attack is only free to Hylians who are using three of the five backgrounds. In another view, that would come across as penalizing people who didnt start with it because now they have even more to spend. You should never base something on "A lot of people have it, so let's make it like this" because it just alienates other people who want it.

Additionally, the reason why it costs less is because it has the prereq. The basis of the move is almost identical to that of Spin attack, so I don't see why it would cost over double what was prior stated by Quill.

Personally, I dont see a problem with the pricing and pre-requisites.

I understand where you're coming from, but my own opinion still stands. The pricing is something I've talked with Quill about already, and it was meant as a compromise between his suggested lower rates and your original suggestion for the technique. However, the fact of that matter is that this is still a strong technique, one likely to be used more often in the P4 and P5 range anyway, as I am sure you intend on doing. At my suggestion, the treasure still remains pretty affordable while continuing to reflect that this is, indeed, a strong technique.


As for the pre-reqs, the simple face of the matter is that the HC library doesn't often use prerequisites for a reason. PWC is supposed to reflect the capability of a character to learn and master a technique, especially considering they are more meta tags than anything else. A character with 5 Power could be a Kokiri with a natural aptitude for that field, even if they couldn't lift a boulder over their heads.

Instead, the difficulty and true "cost" of obtaining treasure is intended to be done through the rupee costs. If I thought that it would be just as easy for a P2 character and a P3 character to obtain or use this technique, I would have made the prices the same. By lowering the prerequisite down it isn't to devalue the effectiveness or value of the skill but simply to make it less niche and available to more people who, perhaps, plan their PWC in different routes than you do.

Ribs is right. PWC is, after all, a meta-game thing, something we use to determine pricing more than anything else. Having a PWC limitation run completely off of in-game required strength doesn't seem to make much sense. I don't know if bringing in the "it's free to some people" is strong enough to warrant a limitation on its own, but lowering a limitation for not really fitting with the system makes sense to me.

Still, this technique is very strong. Like you said, bending gravity is a pretty powerful trick. If it was easy and simple to do, then there would be a lot more Olympic-level Gymnists flipping around. If DSL's might can't be reflected by PWC limitations, then it needs to be shown through cost. Higher-level treasures cost more than spot-on-the-wall treasures; that's just how it works. For example, Spark and Thunder. 7 and 75. The pricing is still lower than what you originally suggested because, like you said, it's an add-on treasure. It just needs to stay moderately costly to reflect its power. Does that kinda make sense?

`Double Spinning Lariat
Original: Tsubori , Technique - offense
[WeaponBase], [Fist]

P5: 35
P4: 50
P3: 70
P2: 90

Prerequisites: User must be at least power 2 and have spin attack.

A mighty attack to be sure, the Double Spinning Lariat is a special fighting move renowned for it's effectiveness in both a fist fighter and armed fighter's arsenals. The technique made fame during a mayoral election in some town or another in Northern Hyrule. With the votes ending in a perfect tie, the decision was made via a fighting match to the KO. The winning candidate used this move to achieve victory and his position.

How the technique works is rather bizarre. The user must place their feet about a foot apart, then start spinning with both arms outstretched. The spin may be done from a standstill or be launched into a direction for about five meters. During these two full 360 degree spins, a strange force pulls those within about a three foot range from the hands towards the spin, as if gravity is somehow being centered on the fighter. The force is about equal to a powerful wind force, enough to pull in dekus, but heavier enemies like gorons will have an easier time resisting, to the point where a well anchored, heavy enemy can fully resist the effect.

This pulls the victim into the spin and depending on where in the two spins they entered, they'll be hit up to four times as they get bounced around the attack before the spins and the person (or persons) are launched a few meters back from the attacker. When the user sets themselves up for the attack, they may decide whether to use the magic pulse powers the Spin attack provides or the Gravity warping powers from double spinning Lariat.

Thanks for working with us on this one, Tsu--it's appreciated

I approve of this treasure.