Zelda: The Return (Again) of the Reforged Third Master Sword

On the 21st of February, 1986, the world was introduced to Link, a boy in green who delves through dungeons and fights the armies of Ganon in order to save the princess Zelda and the Kingdom of Hyrule. Not even a year after the smashing success of this timeless classic, Nintendo released another Zelda game, in which a boy named Link delved through dungeons and battled the hordes of Ganon to save the world of Hyrule and the Princess Zelda. Then, in 1991, Nintendo broke all the rules and stole people's hearts with Zelda: A Link to the Past, in which Link, a green-dressed boy, delves through dungeons and fights hordes of Ganon's monsters to save the kingdom of Hyrule and the Princess Zelda...

Now before I start catching crap for this, I'm not a hater. Zelda is my favorite series ever and I think the "Boy collects items, kills bosses, fetches sword, kills Ganon, saves the princess" thing works well. What I'm wondering is what people's views on this are. Does Zelda need a shift? Should the Master Sword be a gun and Epona, a motorcycle? Is Zelda getting stale?

Re: Zelda: The Return (Again) of the Reforged Third Master S

To be fair, there has been a spattering of Zelda games where he isn't out to just save Zelda (like Majora's Mask, for example). To me though, I've always liked the old Zelda formula, as I'm still a fan of the Save-the-Princess trope that only seems to truly exist in Nintendo titles these days.

I wouldn't complain about a steampunk or cyberpunk Zelda title, but the Master Sword shouldn't become a gun, that's just plain weird. Sure, I could see Link using a gun of sorts, or maybe some funky crossbows and what-not, but the Master Sword should stay the same artifact sword, assuming this sticks to Zelda canon to a degree (otherwise, just make an original IP, don't tie it to Zelda, no point at that junction).

Oh, and Link having a childhood friend, Malon, who works for her father's auto garage, makes a sweet custom motorbike she dubs "Epona" that she lends to Link would be ballin'.

But yah, I like the Steam/Cyberpunk Zelda idea, just keep the Mastersword is all, otherwise it just feels wrong. The Master Sword is a feasible Sword vs Gun weapon anyways, cause it can shoot lasers.

Re: Zelda: The Return (Again) of the Reforged Third Master S

Alright, I'm going to say it again, I'm sick and tired of...actually, first, let me throw this out there really quick. I honestly don't mean this to be directed at anyone, seriously, I really don't mean any offence whatsoever. I wanted to say this first because I'm about to make some generalizations that I don't honestly believe apply to everyone. Anyway...steampunk! Everyone thinks it's so freakin' awesome and original and everything would be cooler if it was steampunk. It's so cool because it uses steam to do things that normally would only be possible with electricity and everyone has zeppelins and dresses Elizabethan! Let me just say this once, I would honestly disown Zelda if they went steampunk. Not that everyone has to feel as I do but that's how I feel.

Re: Zelda: The Return (Again) of the Reforged Third Master S



Ok, well, twas just a suggestion. Seriously, my knowledge of Steampunk is pretty limited, the main reason I listed it was because it still has that older feel to it, where magic still flows a little better into the setting without it going batshit two worlds-type thing. I mean, I have no issue with current Zelda, and I'd still give Steampunk/Cyberpunk/Modern Day/Space/Jurassic/Equestria/ect-style Zelda a go, merely because the concept is interesting and I'm a big fan of The Legend of Zelda in general.

Though, I've become curious as to why you dislike Steampunk so fiercely? I mean, I'd much prefer if Zelda stayed in it's High-Fantasy Medieval setting, but I'm open to other settings merely because I know others have different likes and dislikes then myself. Like, I find the thought of Link using a gun to be pants-on-head retarded, but I'm not going to proclaim "LoZ is dead to me now" if Miyamoto thought it'd be an interesting game.

Re: Zelda: The Return (Again) of the Reforged Third Master S

I think not. When I played Ocarina of Time, I loved the game. I wouldn't then want them to make a game that didn't have a green-clad boy going out to save Hyrule in a similar manner. If you love a game, why then ask for something different?

Re: Zelda: The Return (Again) of the Reforged Third Master S

Mostly, I hate steampunk because of the pretentious and elitist highschoolity of many of those who advocate it. Lol, the term "high school" has become an adjective to me. It is descriptive of those people who think they know it all. People who adhere to a strict social structure. People who wear, say, and do things for the soul purpose of looking cool to others. These are also the people who live a hipster lifestyle and claim not to do things for the sake of admiration from others. They do deviant things in order to be abhorred by others as the more the "establishment" disapproves of what they do, the more their peers admire them. These of the "high school" breed are those who spin insult and condescension into everyday conversation and especially debate. They have no use for class or social niceties. Diplomacy has no place in their actions or communication. High schoolers have a very limited vocabulary when it comes to social interplay and the inability to recognize incongruencies and fallacies both in their own interaction and in others. They are demoralizing to those who spend their lives learning to love others and spending the unconscious side of each second crafting their words to taste sweet and edify those around. "High schoolers" throw around thinly veiled insults and verbal napalm with every sentence and are the instigators of character assassination and slander. They've learned only enough to think themselves clever.Their life's focus is on themselves and their actions reflect it. Their temperament is that of the mentally unstable: at once ecstatic and jittery, depressed and maniacal. They are those who blame their actions on disorders and conditions. They take pride in pushing others down and lifting themselves up. Rebellious and angsty, these are they who thrive on disorder and chaos, fed by riotous and antisocial behavior. They do not necessarily attend high school, but these are "high schoolers", and these are the types I find to be steamheads. (Disclaimer: again, no offence to anyone, I honestly think there are many people who like steampunk that aren't "high schoolers" and there are even high schoolers who aren't "high schoolers" but this is why. It's a bit like my internal conflict with hardcore music, I love it but I hate the "scene". Lolz, that is all. Oh, and also, I like Zelda the way it is and if the formula never changed, I would be perfectly happy!)

Re: Zelda: The Return (Again) of the Reforged Third Master S

Nice rant.

I like your last sentence- not the one about Zelda being awesome (even though it is), the one about liking the thing but hating the scene. That sums up a lot of things.

Re: Zelda: The Return (Again) of the Reforged Third Master S

It wasn't supposed to be a rant but I figured I should try to explain the type of person I was talking about. I don't think steampunk is anything really special but it's alright. I think my feelings on it stem from how dang popular it got (at least around here) and the kind of people it was popular with. Anyway, I suppose I shouldn't get too far off topic...

Re: Zelda: The Return (Again) of the Reforged Third Master S

I think it'd be interesting to have a cyberpunk setting for a Zelda game. Every one of Ganon's enemies has high tech weaponry, and while Link has a gun or two, his main is the Master Sword and its sword beam.

Also, this is just me, personally, but I hate Link's hat.

Re: Zelda: The Return (Again) of the Reforged Third Master S

Why do you hate Link's hat Knight of G? I always liked it, and found it quite the iconic bit about him.

Re: Zelda: The Return (Again) of the Reforged Third Master S

Over the years, the one change I would have liked to see to the Zelda series is the world. I couldn't care less about the stories, I always love their story lines. However, they have always included small maps, and while my suspension of disbelief is strong, I always have the feeling in the back of my mind that Hyrule isn't really much of a kingdom... All of its geography is on such a small scale.

More than that, there are only ever two or three population centers, each one not very big. It seems as though Hyrule and all of its locales are more supposed to REPRESENT their respective towns or regions or whatever, and with there being increasingly more powerful game systems and games to fill that capacity with such large worlds, like the Elder Scrolls, this is even more apparent to me.

I will never come to dislike the land of Hyrule for its small size, but I would much prefer a map that has many more large expanses. I want to feel like I am taking Link on a grueling adventure to the ends of the Earth. I suppose the type of map I would like to see is one very much like the Elder Scrolls game worlds, but don't those feel so much more?

Take the actual Skyrim game world, but instead of the Dragonborn you are Link, and all of the town are actual Zelda locales and all the lore fits etc, but you still have the vast world Bethesda provides, complete with its flowing rivers and massive, vibrant landscape.

Now, let's say this is the Ocarina of Time story. You start out in the Kokiri Forest Village along with the children around you. You are sheltered in your mystical groves, protected by the Great Deku Tree, but beyond the boundaries of your town in a forest that all agree must be haunted. You have no idea what is on the other side of the forest, and you have never been very deep in the forest to begin with. So, after the Deku Tree gives you his quest, and the emerald, he dies, and you must venture into the world. Instead of just following one safe little road built more like a grassy canyon, crossing a short bridge, and leaving the forest, you must travel through the unknown. You EXPLORE the world and become a part of it, you don't just follow it.

After surviving the forest, you find the trees are thinning, then BAM! The game presents you with the sun shining over a lush plain stretching far as the eye can see. This landscape has everything from mountains to valleys and plains, villages, and monsters. It is a world that you would become involved in, but would be a world you knew nothing about previously, so you get to explore and influence, as Zelda games often allow using mini games and side quests.

Also important, I have no problem with the Skyrim method of marking off an edge of the map: outright tell the person they cannot go any farther. No inexplicable rectangular fence running the perimeter of the map, no sheer rock walls. Perhaps, as A Link to the past describes Hyrule as the kingdom surrounded by forests and mountains, your borders could be marked off by rough, unclimbable land with only some poor, dirt roads branching off into the distance, but impassable to Link, and other dense forests with similar impassable, ill-maintained dirt roads. That way Hyrule isn't a giant pit in the ground.

But anyway, wouldn't that sort of Hyrule be much, much more appealing!?

Re: Zelda: The Return (Again) of the Reforged Third Master S

Sounds like Zelda II: The Adventure of Link if you ask me, . I mean, big sprawling world out into the unknown, natural borders, tons of small towns dotting the landscape. Basically, the overworld map of Zelda II reminds me of the map of Skyrim (ok, really pixel-y, but you get my point) where each town icon represents the full town and what-not. I mean, could you imagine how BIG that would would be if you had to traverse the landscape at the same scale as the villages? It'd be like if someone decided to use the scale function in Paint on the LttP overworld and trippled it.

Though I do remember LttP being HUGE for it's time, considering you explored the Dark World as well, though it had similar geography to the Light World.

My random point being, I don't mind the size of maps we've had, but I wouldn't complain about a Skyrim-scale map in Zelda assuming the size was actually used...

...no, nevermind, screw that idea all to hell.

I'd rather not have to explore Skyrim checking walls with bombs and cutting down bushes at every turn.

No thanks, WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY to much space for secrets.

Re: Zelda: The Return (Again) of the Reforged Third Master S

It doesn't need to be quite the size of Skyrim, or so littered with secrets and quests. I just want so badly to be able to look at Hyrule and say, "Yes, that is a fine kingdom." Right now, Hyrule just feels too small. Give me some small, scattered villages so I can see all of the people under duress. I'll only want to save them more.

Re: Zelda: The Return (Again) of the Reforged Third Master S

Under duress? I can't remember the last time a I saw ANY people of Hyrule under duress from outside forces (except when Wolf Link shows up, ). None of them ever seem to be worried about anything, I mean, in LttP the people didn't even know there was a bigger threat then a few kidnapped girls, and most of that blame went on Link. LoZ had no people except a few hiding behind rock walls either giving Link swords or taking rupees for door repairs, Zelda II people were pants-on-head retarded (twas a simpler time for sure). OoT/MM people just went about their business per usual, same with Wind Waker.

Ok, seriously, the people of Hyrule have NO SENSE OF DANGER, WHY DO HYLIANS HAVE "SENSE" AS A RACIAL! THEY ARE OBLIVIOUS TO EVERYTHING!

So, yah, it'd be nice to see people actually caring about the giant pig-man-beast attacking them...

...I can see why no one in Hyrule seems to care... "Help, help! We're being attacked by PIGS! Eep!"

The Pigs in Wind Waker were pretty mean though...

Rambling, Ho!

Re: Zelda: The Return (Again) of the Reforged Third Master S

This is an interesting topic, and it's one I've been thinking about lately. Without getting really off topic, I think the steam-punk discussion is important, though, as far as the direction of games goes.

This may be a bit of a stretch, but I feel like I've seen it enough to make it noteworthy:

Game series often tend to gravitate to a more industrialized feel from a fantasy or medieval background as the timeline progresses. This can be in very traditional, historic, industrial ways, or it can be done in a steampunk fashion if you still want to preserve that fantasy element. Here are some examples I've noticed:

Fable:
This is, I think, the most straight-forward one. The franchise went from about as absolutely stereotypical fantasy as you could get into Fable 2, which added a bit of an industrialized theme. I wouldn't really call it steampunk in this case, but with the advent of guns and more machinery and such, you felt like you were entering into that Victorian Era mixed with a bit of industry.

Assassin's Creed:
Another interesting one, more strictly historical. While the history continuum is worked in nicely with the series, they definitely added a bit of the forced industry element. You can see this with the little da Vinci contraptions ranging from pistols to tanks.

Skyrim:
This one is subtle but more steam-punk. With the advent of Skyrim into the Elder Scrolls saga, a lot more of the Dwemer was used... almost in a frustrating amount. The Dwemer idea relies largely on steam and strange mechanical contraptions, often using huge gears as is similar to the steampunk genre, and it really pervades the universe.

Minecraft:
This one's interesting, because the game has certainly evolved much on its own. Indeed, much of the game is tied up in the modding community, and so it's a good way to see the game develop from the hands of the gamer, not just from the hand of the creator. Lots of steampunk and industry mods have been created to the game, and pistons were even officially added, and people have absolutely gone to town on this game. I think the modding community is a better than average sample selection of a group of gamers in general, and their collective (but far from universal) tastes and desires.

Warcraft:
A quick one here, but still more of the same. As the series has gone on Blizzard has shifted away from pure fantasy, Orcs versus Humans, and going a bit into this industrial line. You see tanks, gyrocopters, huge ancient industrial constructions, robots and so on. I think it's original like all the rest, but the pattern is still there.

Zelda:
First we just had bombs, then we got cannons, clocktown, and now we've got trains. Could this be going somewhere further? Could be, hard to say, though.

Okay, so a word on Steampunk itself.

I actually like the genre, and I have for a while. It honestly surprises me that you've taken such a disliking to it, though it's totally fine, and I've got a question for you about that, but I'll leave it for the end because it's a sidenote. Anyway, though, I've always really appreciated the genre - the art style, the literature, and the games. I've never really been a part of a steampunk group-base, or in a circle of friends who all liked it. I've taken peeks at the steampunk community, and I could understand why you'd want to stay away from them, but apart from the people? I've really liked the genre.

A brief word on fanboys, though, that I'll put in spoilers because it's off-topic.

Show Spoiler Hide Spoiler

I got sent an article about 5 terrible reasons to love, and 5 terrible reasons to hate the Legend of Zelda series. The #2 terrible reason to hate it, is because of the fans, according to the author, and I liked what he had to say about it.

I'm not trying to insinuate that your hatred for steampunk is completely irrational and you need to get over it and just like it already - of course not - but as far as expressing a dislike for it? Maybe the fans are not the strongest point against it.

Okay so here's my side question for you, HH. Where you have so frequently encountered these awful fans that curdle your skin so much? While I know exactly what you're talking about, it's foreign to me as far as this genre goes.

But Steampunk isn't exactly what this thread's about, it's about Zelda, and it's relationship to that and other new ideas.

While I like Steampunk, I also like Zelda. To answer the question that's been somewhat raised: would it be a disaster for Zelda to go in a Steampunk or a futuristic direction?

I'd say yeah, more or less. Zelda is very much its own beast, and it's awesome for that. Unlike the games I listed above, I hope Nintendo keeps the game relatively grounded in that same formula mentioned.

However, should Zelda have new aspects that take it in different directions?

I think yes, and I think two excellent examples of this are Majora's Mask and Wind Waker.

MM definitely had some steampunk elements. They were slight, they were subtle, but those nasty sewers, the giant clock tower, the (basically) street urchins, and even just the little pictobox thing all added a ton of awesome atmosphere to the game. I think it's a great example of Nintendo taking a steampunk/industrial element and integrating it in their game while still very much making it feel like Zelda.

Wind Waker had tons of elements like this too, not all of them being steampunk or industrial. Windfall island is an easy example of those things, but beyond that there were some macro-elements otherwise very foreign to the series. The cel-shaded graphics, for one, were really awesome. They catered to the Gamecube's abilities while making a super clean game that was fun to play, and it also added a fairly light-hearted element to the game that was very much the opposite of Majora's Mask. Whether it was the little poofs of smoke the bombs made or the kid with the giant snot-nose or Link's random expressions all through the game, it added a lot more character to the whole thing. It was a new direction, if you will, and I thought it worked really well.

They're both super different games, and they're both really awesome, but most importantly they were both Zelda.

So tl;dr, if Zelda's going to add new direction, I think it should be done carefully, thoughtfully, but most importantly still very much keeping in mind the context of the Zelda universe.

:V

Re: Zelda: The Return (Again) of the Reforged Third Master S

Thank you, Ribitta, for your thoughts on the subject, I can tell you're not a fan-boy simply by the fact that you didn't get defencive and argumentative about the subject. I think you've helped me come to a realization. Let me start at the beginning of my thought process. This is going to sound off topic for a bit but I mean to set the background.

I strongly disagree with you about the community. By the way, disclaimer, this is my opinion based on my experience, I'm not calling it the gospel truth. When I play Halo, I role play. I take on the role of Master Chief, a spartan soldier fighting against the Covenant and the Flood to protect Earth and the galaxy. He is a character in that story and I am playing the role of John 117. When I play Mario, the character I play as is a failed plumber and shroom junkie. I guide Mario through a series of worlds in an attempt to save the captive Princess Peach (or to remove graffiti for some reason...). I make the character jump and run and jump on the heads of goombas to reap their coiny insides. But then there's Zelda.

When I play Zelda, I am not role playing. I do not control a young boy in green as he quests across the vastness of Hyrule. The young boy isn't swinging a sword at moblins or learning how to control his loftwing. He's not collecting rupees and sailing the Great Sea in the King of Red Lions. It's me. I don the zora mask, I play the ocarina, I defeat Ganon. Miyamoto's created a game world, Hyrule, to be the venturing grounds for the player, not for Link. He drew inspiration for the games from his early years playing in the forests of Sonobe and wanted to carry that vision to us, to give us the chance to do the same. When we pick up the controller, blocky grey NES model or hand-held 3DS, we don't engage a sprite or a character within the game, we control an avatar, a representation of us within Hyrule. The boy's name is Link deliberately, he is our portal into OoS, WW, and TP.

Now of course the character of Link does exist in the game and he rightfully should. The game's integrity would be severely compromised if there was no hero, or a Hylian who was supposed to be the player so the avatar became disjointed and unable to play a part in the drama of the game. Link becomes the vessel through which our commands are seen to effect the game but as this happens, the avatar merges with the character to form a harmony of player and character, not a player controlling a character in the game. Nintendo has always placed great emphasis on "[bringing] the fun out of the TV and into the living room": the Virtual Boy, Game Boy, Game Boy Printer, Game Boy Color, Game Boy Advance, DS, DSi, 3DS, Wiimotes, N64 mic, FSA, WiiU...you get the point. The Zelda series, however, not only attempts to join you in the room, it attempts to meld game and player into one.

This is what helped to cement Zelda in my heart. The first time I set sail for Windfall, the first dive off of Skyloft, the first cave in which I found my wooden sword, these were experiences I had, not a character in a game. Mason fought through the Cold War, Revan carved a bloody swath through the galaxy but I saved the people of Termina, I collected the three spiritual stones, I saved the princess.

Now that you see the way I view Zelda, the next part may be taken closer to context.

I slew Ganon. You slew Ganon. Robin Williams slew Ganon. Robin Williams may not be a member of this site (or is he? O.o) but you and I are here discussing Zelda. Tens of thousands of people are discussing Zelda. Fans who each, in their own time, slew Ganon. We discuss strategies for taking down Gohma, we discuss the geographical inconsistencies of Hyrule, we discuss if Link and Ruto could...you know...do stuff... We write fan fiction and role play as our original characters and well known characters, we bake cookies in the shape of the triforce, we pay $1000 for an unopened collectors edition MM. We debate timelines, decipher game code and create ultimate challenges for ourselves (every heart piece baby!). The way I see it, since we're all a part of the game, the Zelda community itself is part of the Legend of Zelda. We are all Link and because of this, I believe that the community, especially the fanboys, are an indispensable part of Zelda.

Now we come to the payoff, what I may have learned. My above view on Zelda will always hold as true for me, there's no denying that, but I suppose I need to realize that not everything in life is like Zelda in that way. Fanboys may not be part of the object of their fandom all the time. Music for instance, fans rarely go on to make music, even fewer of the same genre, so they could be considered only a peripheral part of the music but not as closely related as Zelda is to its fans. Steampunk is the same to a degree I suppose, without the fans, my view of the genre would be different indeed. So I have food for thought there.

Let me now play defence for a second and bring to light the reasoning behind my grudging view of the fans. Let's try for a moment, swinging the see-saw the other direction. My meaning was not meant to be interpreted, "Steampunk is bad because of its fans." although that's the way I phrased it. The meaning in my mind, however, was a few layers down. What my mind said was, "the fans of steampunk may share common traits but I don't believe that's necessarily what brought them to it.". Maybe it's the fandom of steampunk itself that fosters certain personality traits! Then sprung to mind, "Whether or not that's true, I've equated these personality traits with people who are steamheads." I won't go into the ways that steampunk could affect its fans but I think my final conclusion there is that if I got into steampunk, I would become part of the community and I don't like the style enough to put up with that.

*sigh* Now on to the map part.

I've considered the idea before, an Elder Scrolls-like world of Hyrule, free-roaming, random encounter, a hundred little towns dotting the landscape. It would be pretty cool. Call it, Hyrule: Land in Chaos, or Realms of Hyrule. It wouldn't be a Legend of Zelda game. Zelda has always been semi-linear. A seasoned fan enters the first dungeon and thinks, "There are switches I have to hit in the first room so I'll probably get the boomerang, bow, or slingshot in this dungeon and that item will be used to defeat the boss in order to advance the story.". When you enter a cave that has a target above a high cliff, you think, "I'll need to come back here after I get the hookshot.". I walk into a store and know subconsciously, "I'll need to pay the shopkeeper 200 rupees for that shovel because I can't kill the owner as Link is inherently good.".

In a sandbox game, there is no linearailty as there is no progression in levels (not the RPG kind, the dungeon kind) and little restriction on areas which you can access. This is not the essence of Zelda. At the beginning of the game, we are confined to a small area of the game world: Kokiri Forest, Clock Town, Ordona Province, Skyloft, Outset Island. There is a coherent storyline inseparable from the world around you so the story progresses as the map progresses. Despite being encouraged to go back through previously played parts of Hyrule to accomplish tasks, the storyline is still progresses at least by changes in the geographical access or changes to the area, even if it's just in the form of new dialogue.

Paths that guide us through the game are important as they focus us on our goal and allow for more standardized advancements in storyline and side quests. Open worlds are fun for grinding levels in RPGs, blasting away thousands of bad guys in shooters or finding interesting easter eggs and straight up messing around in sims, but they are hardly conducive to storyline. Miyamoto said in regards to SS that after TP, they realized how barren and empty a world was made in TP. One could travel around in Hyrule Field for minutes on end without finding a single thing of interest. In SS they aimed to fix that. Whatever your views on SS as a game, this is what the Zelda team was trying to do, bring together spaces of places and spaces of flows.

That being said, I understand where you're coming from and have rolled the idea around for a while but in the end, I always seem to spit it out. Fin.

Re: Zelda: The Return (Again) of the Reforged Third Master S

Well, I don't want a sandbox Zelda, just a bigger one.... considerably bigger. Confinement for various parts of the game is cool, I like that, as well. All a bigger map would need, I suppose, is more confinement, like more barrier, but I suppose it would function the same way.