Merge Dungeons into the Quest Bureau?

Discussion in 'Suggestions & Ideas' started by Guy, Oct 29, 2015.

  1. Guy

    Guy Admin admin

    Messages:
    1,633
    Trophy Points:
    48
    This would be a pretty small change, but it's something that's been bugging me for a long time...

    Way back in the day when Bitoko ruled but never actually role-played, any character could only be in one role-play at a time. Needless to say, this was very problematic if you really wanted to use a character, but your RP partner was slow--or Din forbid just stopped posting, leaving you hanging.

    Bitoko was oddly stubborn about one-character, one-thread. As a loophole, I introduced Classic Dungeons as something that existed "outside" the site canon. You could have one character in as many dungeons as you wanted, even if that character was already bogged down in the 'main' role-play. To compensate for this convenience, dungeon rewards were lower than quest rewards--lower than they are now.

    Anyway, obviously now there's no character thread limit. :yomp: So there's no reason to keep Classic Dungeons separate from Hyrule proper, much less 'non-canon' whatever that means. I would like to move the "Guide to Classic Dungeons" into the Quest Bureau forum, and have people just post the dungeons themselves in whatever Hyrule forum--Northern Hyrule, Southern Hyrule, or Eastern Sea--they felt to be appropriate. Someone might do Forest Temple up in the Lost Woods, while someone else might do it down in Kokiri Forest--no big deal. I've noticed several players are already referencing parts of HC's Hyrule when doing dungeons, anyway.

    I would like to tie Super Dungeons into the map and the plot to some extent, however. Koholint Island exists almost verbatim on HC, and you can literally see the egg on the map. Similarly, Palace of Twilight is at the moment the only legitimate way characters will even reach the Twilight Realm. And canonically reaching a the actual moon would certainly be boss. Something would certainly need to be figured out about Ganon's Tower, but... I have a couple ideas.

    Anyway, this change would also help make these forums look more active, especially with the rise in popularity CDs have gotten lately. (Seriously, there's only eight threads in the Eastern Sea, and four of those are Lavaclaw.)

    Tl;dr - I want to move Classic Dungeon threads into the Hyrulean forums, and move The Guide to Classic Dungeons into the Quest Bureau. Thoughts?
    Cloud likes this.
  2. Chaos James

    Chaos James Bastion of Debauchery vet

    Messages:
    661
    Trophy Points:
    18
    3DS Friend Code:
    1521-3083-7405
    Hmm, while I like how organized having all the Classic Dungeons in one subforum, perhaps moving them to the actual areas of Hyrule would make sense. So I'd be fine with them being merged into one "big" world, though we shouldn't treat them as much different. I'd hate to add Classic Dungeons to the RP world, then have some people feel odd about running multiple CD while also a singular RP, if they like a flowing logical travel log or what-not. Tiny thing, but I'd hate to put off the handful who enjoy the one-rp-per-character thing.

    As a side note, are we gonna raise the reward from CD if they become merged with Hyrule? :DD (Unlikely, the price difference would likely just reflect the structured nature of the Dungeon's theme, lol.)
  3. Cloud

    Cloud friend admin

    Messages:
    1,023
    Trophy Points:
    48
    Member:
    this dick
    Yes. This is a good idea.
  4. Blonde Panther

    Blonde Panther Not always sweet and delicate vet

    Messages:
    2,266
    Trophy Points:
    48
    3DS Friend Code:
    4270-0958-9582
    Generally speaking, I'm very much in favour of this. I don't know about others, but I've been trying to 'put dungeons on the map,' as it were, and I've always treated them as semi-canon in that character interactions/meetings/development from one did happen for my characters. I do, however, have a few concerns that we may want to address before we make a decision:

    1). Putting Superdungeons on the map literally would be really cool, and involving them in the site plot somehow would be even cooler. However, some characters are based in the North and others in the South; would this limit which characters could do which Superdungeon? I ran into a similar problem with Starsend and am not happy with what I've resorted to to solve it. For people with few characters, this could become a serious problem.

    1b). On that note, I don't recall off-hand if this is happening right now, but characters from the South and from the North have been able to do Dungeons together because of their only pseudo-canon status. How will that change if they get a more canon status? We wouldn't want to limit people in who they can RP with because of where their character is based.

    2). As I said, making (some/all) Superdungeons plot-related would be awesome. However, there are multiple groups of people working towards the same dungeon. I know you, Guy, are eligible for the Palace of Twilight, but I also know there's others who are interested in running it - yours truly included. If for example you, Eev, Cloud, and Saria got to it first, and after you've completed it Squish, Darth, and I wanted to run it, would there be consequences for us in terms of setting/flavour/boss, etc?

    That said, these aren't reasons not to do it, they're just questions I think need an answer. As I said, I'm entirely in favour.
  5. Chaos James

    Chaos James Bastion of Debauchery vet

    Messages:
    661
    Trophy Points:
    18
    3DS Friend Code:
    1521-3083-7405
    That's why I would be of the mind that, while adding them to the Map would be a positive, we shouldn't change how Classic Dungeons are thought of innately to avoid issues like this. If people would still like to treat them as "semi-canon" or "non-canon", they should be able to. Some people like to RP with others in dungeons, but adhere to stricter World RP rules (like distance, characteristics, location, ect).

    The Classic Dungeons being added to the World should be an additional option, not a replacement option.

    I would hope no greater consequences. Unlike the quick Event dungeons, I'd rather Super Dungeons rather keep, like, a "Hall of Victory"-type thing where it just lists all the conquering heroes' names. Though perhaps the 1st Clear of it could have actual effects or changes to the world, though I'm unsure of even that. Having, say, the Moon be cleared adds a new area where Moonlight Cultists hang out or maybe leaves a permanent effect on the Moon's surface might be ok, but at the same note, I personally wouldn't be a fan of the SDs being a race. I might be in a minority though.
  6. Guy

    Guy Admin admin

    Messages:
    1,633
    Trophy Points:
    48
    ...Many of my characters travel between North and South Hyrule rather often, actually. :dorf: Bitoko used to footstomp how incredibly difficult that was, but that guideline has long since been removed--since it serves no functional purpose other than to limit RPs in this fashion.

    That said, I don't see any problem with allowing dungeons--or even super-dungeons--to be doable in a 'non-canon' or 'alternate dimension' way like they currently can be. That is, as CJ suggested. I've noticed players have been doing it either way for a while, now.

    To be frank, the "plot dungeons" have each been done several times by several groups, with no one losing anything from it other than not having their characters specifically mentioned in Will's event post.

    When I said the super dungeons would be 'involved in the plot,' I mostly met that the first person to complete one might trigger one or more events that affect Hyrule (or something like that)--and that they would have canonical and identifiable locations on the map. Needless to say, whether someone completed it first or third, and decided to do it 'canon' or 'non-canon', the only loss would be not being the specific one to trigger a given event. Boss, flavor, setting, and the like would still be as completely up to you as with any dungeon or event-quest.

    EDIT: I also think CJ's idea of a "Hall of Fame" for Super Dungeons would be pretty cool.

    Notably, I could add Super Dungeons (as well as their canonical location, requirements, and victors) to the library.
  7. Chaos James

    Chaos James Bastion of Debauchery vet

    Messages:
    661
    Trophy Points:
    18
    3DS Friend Code:
    1521-3083-7405
    Yah, despite the travel restrictions being removed, some people do like to adhere to some self-imposed rules, and it wouldn't be nice to yank the more casual CDs out from under them. That was pretty much my only concern there.

    Also, I wouldn't have any problems with SDs trigger new events that everyone can take part in & them being physical locations on the map. I personally won't be too torn up if someone else triggers an event via SD completion. Probably just me being overly competitive thinking "Well shit, if I can be first to complete that SD, I will be THE FRICKIN' ARCHMAGE OF THE ENTIRE UNIVERSE!". Contrary to that, I'll be rooting for the SD Completers if it means I'll get a new themed event or what-not that I can go take part in.

    EDIT: Yah, having a Hall of Fame page where it lists all those (Singular, or Parties) whom completed the SD, a link to their thread, with whatever info on that stuff would be really snazzy.
  8. Squishy

    Squishy tl;dr this is all, still, toko's fault admin

    Messages:
    1,300
    Trophy Points:
    48
    I'm not entirely sure about combining the two, personally I feel it's more organised if they're in seperate boards? Also since not all of my dungeons are "canon", as far as that means something, but I guess that could still be doable if they became quests.

    CJ's point is my biggest question/problem with merging the two, that not listing the classic dungeons on the map and/or keeping them seperate gives us much more freedom to put them wherever we want to, since the idea of the dungeons is that we're free to make up our own ideas with a few tiny restrictions?

    In short I wouldn't do it, but I seem to be the only one, so eh ._. I'm not going to throw a fit over it.
  9. Chaos James

    Chaos James Bastion of Debauchery vet

    Messages:
    661
    Trophy Points:
    18
    3DS Friend Code:
    1521-3083-7405
    Well, I think only the Super Dungeons would have specifically "Canon" locations. Guy mentions that people would be able to place them where-ever they think best (one person could put the Forest Temple in the Lost Woods, another in the Korkiri Forest, for example), but they can still be considered "non-Canon" for those that desire.

    I agree that organization would be lost, though I would likely just suggest a Title formatting thing, like "CD: My Witty Dungeon Title Here [Dungeon Name][Players]" just so they can easily be spotted in the section. *shrug*

    Overall, I believe CDs should function exactly as they always have been, they just get posted in the general RP sections instead of a specific CD subforum.
  10. Blonde Panther

    Blonde Panther Not always sweet and delicate vet

    Messages:
    2,266
    Trophy Points:
    48
    3DS Friend Code:
    4270-0958-9582
    With CJ's and Guy's solutions to my concerns, I no longer have any stipulations about the merge.
  11. Darth_Slaverus

    Darth_Slaverus Member vet

    Messages:
    498
    Trophy Points:
    18
    I'm in favour of a lot of the underlying principles of this proposal, especially with regards to making dungeons "canon" in terms of the character's experience. I've always treated dungeons threads as canon, at least for my characters, so seeing an official move in that direction makes me happy. I was a little iffy about giving Super Dungeons canon locations in-universe, but if Classic and Super Dungeons alike will still allow players freedom in deciding their setting, flavour, etc. as Guy has suggested, that concern vanishes entirely.

    My only issue is that I kinda agree with Squish in that I think it's more organized for dungeons to have their own board. I don't necessarily think a merge will flood the other boards or anything, but even with these proposed changes, dungeons are still distinct from Quests in that they qualify you for Super Dungeons. I dunno, I just find it neater for them to have their own place. Makes it easier to distinguish them at a glance.
    Last edited: Oct 30, 2015
  12. Eevachu

    Eevachu Admin admin

    Messages:
    931
    Trophy Points:
    28
    Merging the CD forum with NH/SH/ES isn't a big deal to me, I'm fine with either option, but I agree with the fact that we should use the quest bureau thread for dungeons as well. I mean, if you look at all the latest dungeon clears, most people just made QB threads to get them approved anyway because that's the only way they're feasibly noticed aside from directly asking a staff member.

    As for Super Dungeons being set locations, I am a tad iffy on that. For some, such as Twilight Palace/Nightmare Egg, they make more sense, but others, less so. I don't think it's an awful idea or anything, I just think in a lot of cases it's kind of an unnecessary specification? I don't think setting their location really adds anything to the experience or site(Aside from "Ghost Ship in in the ocean"), but it does restrict where they are which can limit what the player could do. A lot of them do literally take place in alternate dimensions though anyway, so it's not a huge deal. I think the hall of fame idea is cool though.
  13. SenpaiPancake

    SenpaiPancake Shhh! I'm charging my laser... reg

    Messages:
    197
    Trophy Points:
    18
    I'm fine with either or, though I would say I lean towards combining them. My question is though, if we DO go with canon Superdungeon locations, does that mean our Hyrule has the terrifying Termina Moon?
  14. Guy

    Guy Admin admin

    Messages:
    1,633
    Trophy Points:
    48
    It has always had the Termina moon. :dorf: If you thought otherwise, it was just facing away from the surface whenever you looked.

    In light of some resistence on giving Super Dungeons canonical locations, I'll just put minor hints on the map for most of them (e.g., a visible 'Nightmare Egg' on Koholint Island). Furthermore, I'll have the relevant Super Dungeon descriptions read along the lines of, "The Great Palace is rumored to be hidden among the many hills surrounding Stone Tower and the Ancient Kingdom of Ikana." So, there would be plenty of reason for the rumors to not be true, even in the most literal of interpretations. Hopefully that helps somewhat?
    Eevachu and Cloud like this.
  15. Saria

    Saria Severely Acute Radical Syndrome reg

    Messages:
    411
    Trophy Points:
    18
    basically this
  16. Cloud

    Cloud friend admin

    Messages:
    1,023
    Trophy Points:
    48
    Member:
    this dick
    Wow I was about to make a thread literally about this same thing and then I noticed "oh we already talked about this." (HC's staff ladies and gentlemen)))))

    Anyways, it seems there was... quite a bit of support for the idea itself. I think, ultimately, the best way to separate a dungeon from a quest is to just put a tag, the same way we already list like opened and closed, group members, etc.

    For me to weigh in one some issues here (like Super Dungeons having canon, static locations)... I think the static locations are a good idea, but only for the terribly long, ultra-difficult to reach ones, like Ganon's Tower, or heavens forbid... The Savage Labyrinth of Ordeals. Actually, wait. I think The Savage Labyrinth of Ordeals is possibly too legendary a location for anyone to even know where it is beyond faint rumours and legends of its very existence, and also probably underground. Or not. No one will (probably) ever reach it anyways, so the point is a little moot, I guess.

    Also, CJ mentioned earlier about merging the rewards. When I was going to make a new thread, I was going to propose that we just make all threads worth base 40r/player + 10r/participating character. The way I look at it is basically that CDs are sort of implied to be the kind of threads that are... I don't want to specifically say trash, but I do put a certain level of effort into my legitimate quest threads (those located in the main boards) versus those located in the Classic Dungeons board.

    All of my Classic Dungeons are usually set somewhere in the world of Hyrule as dictated by the map anyways, so I guess I'm sort of biased towards the idea. Anyways, these are just my thoughts-- I'd love to see some action happen on this... perhaps a poll is in order??? :^)
  17. Guy

    Guy Admin admin

    Messages:
    1,633
    Trophy Points:
    48
    Feel free to make one.

    If we do change the rupee amounts for dungeons, I would insist that any characters who completed dungeons beforehand have the option to receive extra rupees retroactively for each dungeon completed. I always try to make that happen when new changes like this occur, so no one feels like they got shafted.

    As I remember, this thread was during my last burst of HC-related ideaphoria, as always was followed with a several-month bout of sudden disinterest. (I am thankfully coming out of that disinterested state now.) I was working on the new map at the time of this thread. If Super Dungeons had static locations, they would be hinted at on the map with symbols or such--like a tall sitting in the mountains (Ganon's Tower), or something to that effect. I do agree with SM that static locations makes sense for some SDs more than others, but at least a few should make it into the map if they have obvious "why would it be anywhere else" locations... Nightmare Egg, Ganon's Tower, etc. Even then, there wouldn't be enforces rules if, say, someone actually did every dungeon prerequisite and wanted to put their SD somewhere else.

    I don't really understand why Darth, Saria, and others feel a separate board is necessary for classic dungeons... It seems like the majority want to keep dungeon threads segregated anyway, so it may stay that way, even if I personally think it makes less sense.
    Cloud likes this.