Crafting Change Idea

If we did this, I assume Tailor would probably just be incorporated into Armorer... considering they can, currently, pretty much only make very weak armor.

I'm not sure what would happen with Botanist, if anything.

I would prefer to keep it as it is. I think it makes more logical sense for the professions to be divided between Blacksmithing and Woodworking, considering the two involve pretty different materials.

Part of the problem is that, as it stands, Woodworker and Tailor are nothing but functionally inferior versions of Blacksmith. They only make fundamentally weaker gear, which appeals to a smaller range of characters. If Tailor and Woodworker were omitted outright, I think it would only affect one character--who I believe hasn't even crafted anything yet. There's a reason the two highest-leveled crafts on the site right now are Blacksmiths. They actually have something to aspire to.

Furthermore, the division of materials as it is now doesn't make that much sense. When someone thinks of an effect to add to equipment, there's no logical reason it shouldn't go both Blacksmith and Woodworker. I frequently end up copy-pasting effects to both versions anyway, since they effectively make the same stuff, just with the latter using fundamentally weaker substances.

tl;dr - Blacksmith is the ultimate crafting profession. The only reason to use others is because of a monopoly on certain materials that is purely artificial and doesn't actually make any sense. (There's no reason a Blacksmith shouldn't be able to use Dodongo Hide to make a shield, for instance.) The system is broken as-is.

WOOT!
Yeah, I totally agree with guy's points on this one. While thematically it makes more sense for the professions to be divided in terms of the items used, mechanically it absolutely breaks the point of the system.
So actually I now totally understand this divide;
Clooby and Darth here are focused on the thematic and flavour aspects of Crafting, where Guy and Willow are, for the very good reason of being the freaking webmaster and a moderator respectively, are focused on the mechanical aspect.
Personally, while I see benefits to either being in use, I prefer the more mechanically-based system.

As Cloud elegantly said in the cbox:
If it's worn, an Outfitter makes it.
If it's wielded, a Weaponsmith makes it.

The pendant example you provided would thus be made by an Outfitter.
It would also follow in saying that a shield is wielded and not worn, then a Weaponsmith would make it.

The only items that would neither be wielded nor worn are particularly odd, and would likely be better suited as their own, special treasures rather than something which could be crafted.

This is literally what I had in mind. There would be a significant distinction, and a legitimate reason for characters of different crafts to interact and trade, rather than being totally self-sufficient.

All woodworker materials (or almost all of them) would still function for a Weaponsmith or Outfitter as appropriate. The few that don't could simply be given a thematic change to make them more suitable.

While I agree that Blacksmiths unfortunately have the lion's share of materials to work with, I strongly disagree with the idea that Woodworker and Tailor create "fundamentally weaker gear." In a vacuum, maybe, but even if we discount thematic reasons why a character might not wear metal armour... I would draw attention to the fact that wearing metal armour reduces a character's effective Magic Power to zero. And, having looked through the spells in the Library, I can safely say that a mage with zero Magic Power is pretty well shafted on HC. So, right there, I can see a use for Tailor, to create magic robes and the like.

Woodworking is a little more iffy, but my mental image of a fletcher is pretty different from that of a smith. Right off the top of my head, bows, crossbows, spears, staves, and wands are all more likely to be made of wood than metal. But, if Woodworking must go, I would actually suggest combining it with Botanist into some kind of "Naturalist" profession that specializes in using wood, herbs, sap, poisons, etc.

I'm not particularly persuaded by the argument that the highest-leveled professions on the site are Blacksmiths, either. I think that there's been more interest in Blacksmithing for thematic reasons, which in turn led to more options, not the other way around. Clooby, at least, brainstorms new Blacksmith materials a lot. Frankly, I think Smithing attracts people because it's a more typical "fantasy" profession for some wandering hero- I don't usually picture a Tailor wandering around and getting into brawls. Plus, it's fun to tinker with metal in your head and make unique designs.

I don't really like the idea of splitting things along a bladesmith/outfitter line, even taking into account Will's suggestion that a bladesmith could craft mundane armour and vice versa.. Again, thematic concerns aside, it really strains my suspension of disbelief to imagine some expert smith who can create Goron Iron blades in the blink of an eye couldn't somehow do the same to make a helmet, despite his prior experience with the material. Crafting is already a pretty heavy investment, character-wise, and having to level two at once to make a full-fledged smith sort of character would be prohibitively expensive.

Personally, I think more materials for the "neglected" professions would be a better solution.

I will proceed to explain my counter-points in a logical and detailed fashion. Let me know if I didn't mention one of your points in this reply. u:

If Blacksmiths and Woodworkers somehow had exactly equal material treasures...
- Weapons: Blacksmith weapons would literally always be superior to Woodworker weapons and Tailor "weapons" unless (a) you're making a bow, or (b) some character has a wood fetish. There is nothing which doesn't support full metal weapons, and nothing which empowers wooden weapons.
- Armor: There are few characters who actually use Magic Power, and there's very little purpose to even consider making half of the Crafts on HC specifically to cater to the needs of those few.

Crossbows, spears, staves, and wands could arguably be made by either blacksmiths or woodworkers. Bows, like I mentioned above, are the sole exception. Of course, Tailors can make none of this.

I do agree that Botanist should see empowerment, and certain remnants of Woodworker could certainly be incorporated into that. Unlike Blacksmith/Woodworker/Tailor, Botanists have legitimate reasons why they should have materials and effects no other crafts should.

I dare you to convince someone to make a woodworker or tailor character other than
- "I just like it" or "thematic reasons"
- Your character has Magic Power
- There's already blacksmiths so make something else
- There are Materials exclusive to (insert Craft) that for no legitimate reason couldn't also be made available to Blacksmiths

I don't think anyone can create Goron Iron blades "in the blink of an eye"... but I guess that's beside the point.

If we're going to be realistic, then even the current professions don't make much sense. It's assumed that characters are able to make amazing weapons and armor, the sorts of things that would take years of training or extreme talent to produce. It's not just "I'm gonna slap together a helmet and it'll be function." Materials are just an excuse to make weapons and armor that's truly legendary, that takes immense skill. These swords of people are, in real life, dedicated to making ONE thing. Woodworkers don't make bows, bowyers make bows. Blacksmiths don't make katanas--that's an entire art in of itself. Heroes go to specific craftsmen for specific items that are crafted to be legendary. If you want to equip an entire legion with equipment that works decently and is affordable, then you go to a blacksmith.

This isn't even mentioning the sorts of gear that involves multiple components. Armor is often tailoring as much as it is blacksmithing, and heaven knows neither a blacksmith nor a woodworker could be expected to make a crossbow.

And yes, Crafting is an investment--with the highest-leveled Crafter on the site, I would think I would know--but no one character is supposed to be able to make everything (unless they grind the hell out of it, I guess). That was and always has been the point, is that different characters would make different gear and have reasons to trade their services with each other. This is literally the reason we even have multiple crafts.

Right now it's mostly a monopoly on who has the best blacksmith, with the other crafts only suited to extremely specific niches. And no, this isn't simply because the current blacksmith materials are better, but because a wooden pole or a jerkin is much more niche than a sword or chainmail.

Furthermore, I strongly disagree that this is a solution, because I've seen this happen too often:
Blacksmith: "Let's make a material that makes armor crafted from it impervious to heat!"
Woodworker: "Cool!"
Tailor: "Cool! So I can make a scarf that resist fire?"
Blacksmith Person: "No, it has to be metal."
Tailor: "...Why?"

There generally isn't a good reason to limit materials to a specific craft as-is. Treasures aren't--or at least shouldn't be--exclusive to one group or another simply because Guy or Darth dictates it must be so.

I admit, I'm kinda confused by the level of concern over balance in this thread. Mechanical balance is a pretty nebulous concept in forum RPing, especially one like HC, which doesn't have stats and isn't competitive by nature. Yes, a metal weapon is going to cut harder than a wooden one. But raw combat ability isn't the only thing that defines a character; flavour and theme count for something. Now, I agree that Woodworking and Tailoring could stand to be improved, but I'd suggest adding materials that emphasize utility effects, in contrast to metal's killing power. I think that would be better than just copypasting Blacksmith materials.

For example, for a Woodworker, I could see wood that falls silently on any surface for a stealth character, a wood that can project and shoot thorns, a wood that exudes a pheromone which attracts/repels animals, a wood that secretes a toxic sap or sticky resin... That's like 6 ideas right there, that I came up with after browsing the existing materials, all of which, as far as I know, don't step on any other materials' toes and would be tricky to translate into metal. A little imagination goes a long way.

I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss Magic Power, either. Giving that it was created as part of the library changes, after which activity on HC declined and not a lot of characters were made, it doesn't surprise me that Magic Power isn't widely used, since existing mages haven't been converted yet. I imagine that you'd be likely to see new or recently-converted mages start with or otherwise acquire it quickly, considering how useful it is. And besides, Magic Power affects quite a few Treasures. I'd be leery of deeming it the "few," which could just as easily be applied to Crafting, since the majority of characters aren't crafters. Should they be ignored? Obviously not.

To be fair, I did say they were "more likely" to be made of wood, not definitely. Otherwise, no arguments here.

I think we both know this is a weak argument. Characters are built on thematic elements, it's impossible to divorce them from that. Unless you like soulless husks for characters, making a Woodworker for the sake of making a Woodworker is silly. What you seem to be suggesting is that you pick Crafting to be able to make cool stuff, which is fair, but because Blacksmithing produces "superior" results compared to Woodworking, Woodworking is invalidated as a concept. However, I could do the same for Blacksmithing. A Smith can invest a bunch of time and money into making a cool flaming sword... Or I could just grab a Fire Specialty and Fire Enchantment and have a cool flaming weapon whenever I want, wherever I want. Is that way better, because it's more efficient? No, because of thematics. Again, what Woodworking and Tailor could use is more unique options.

But for the sake of argument, I'll note that a character who wants to craft but is concerned about weight, agility, and freedom of movement would probably get more mileage out of Woodworking or Tailoring. That's a pretty wide range of characters right there.

Already talked about Magic Power and materials, moving on.

If we're going to be realistic, I'm going to insist that a Treasure that gives a character MacGyver-like abilities to craft a weapon out of whatever material he wants is a heck of a lot more unrealistic than one that lets a guy who can make a magic sword also make magic armour out of the same material. Yes, forging a metal sword is different from forging a suit of armour, but they're more alike than making a wooden bow or a leather shirt. If Will's claim that PCs are exceptional is being used to explain why Crafting should apply to all these materials at once, I see no reason why it couldn't also be used to justify why a Blacksmith PC can make both "legendary" swords and armour. Similarly, while it's true that crafting is the work of a lifetime IRL, so is swordplay and probably magic if it had a real world counterpart, yet PCs can learn a couple new techniques in every thread.

The fact that the highest-leveled crafter on the site is only level 4 out of a theoretically infinite amount of levels speaks to the time and rupees it takes to raise the skill. I dunno, it seems really contrived to me that, even if you want to go with the idea that special materials require special processes, a high level bladesmith has to shell out a large amount of money to be able to make a suit of armour out of a material he or she should already be somewhat familiar with.

I'll abide by whatever is decided upon, but I do honestly believe that bundling the Crafting professions together makes the whole thing feel a lot more bland to me.

It's not so much balance as much as it is interest. History has shown there is little interest in crafts that are not blacksmithing. Balance just happens to be an extension of that since many--but by no means all--players are more drawn to treasures which seem to have more powerful or more useful effects.

We had started using the new library before I posted this thread, which was back in November of 2013. I won't disagree that activity hasn't been as high for 2014 (for several reasons that shouldn't be discussed at present). While there may be some exceptions, I don't think there are many characters which have yet to convert, unless they will never convert. I mean, it's been a year, man.

Magic Power affects 22 treasures--or roughly half that if we exclude elemental variations. Those treasured are indeed significant for the characters who specialize in offensive spells--like Rika, for example. That said, such treasures encompass less than 1% of the now over 400 treasures in the Library. "Few" I think is an accurate word to use.

And no, they aren't being ignored at all. Outfitters would still be able to cater to the sorts of characters which use Magic Power.

Furthermore, Crafting isn't supposed to be used by everyone. The ideal situation involves a few characters who are able to sell their services to other characters--although that has yet to happen outside of a few small instances, it is nonetheless the ideal. This is partly why Crafting costs as much as it does, since it is unique in that can be used to make profits off other characters' purchases.

I think my intent may have been lost. You said blacksmithing was more popular, at least in part, because of "thematic reasons." My point was that the main reason someone would choose one of the other crafts is also for thematic reasons.

There are characters who are likely to prefer lighter armor--Guy Denzrita, one of my mains, is among them. As I emphasized previously, it nonetheless seems nonsensical to have 2/3rds of the crafts dedicated to that purpose.

This is completely discounting weaponry, too. Even if such characters wear wood or cloth, they are still even more likely to wield metallic weapons. From the numerous characters I've graded, I can tell you that almost everyone emphasizes a character's weaponry over their armor.

I can understand your point. If we're going to be realistic, then crafting will never really make sense. I can't speak for everyone, but I guess I just don't go for realism--in this setting, at least--as strongly as you do. I think of this site as a game as much as I do a fantasy world, and it can be difficult to balance between the two when they don't sync up perfectly.

That's four, and shooting projectiles is something I believe a blacksmith material already does. I could be wrong, though.

Still, the other three ideas are definitely noteworthy. I would be eager to incorporate such effects into a more empowered form of Botany... which, coincidentally, I would like to hear anyone's thoughts on.


EDIT: If the majority of HC supported this viewpoint, then I would of course cede and not change anything. So far, though, it seems the majority seems to be on-board for the change.

Going to clarify a few of my points that have been touched on since my last post. They won't be in chronological order, since there are a couple I want to talk about more in-depth.

Six. I counted the ones with a slash or "or" in the description as two separate entities, since I was too lazy to type out the preceding sentence twice. Also, I meant to include one that shoots out vines of ivy to entangle an opponent. Whoops.

While this seems less than impressive out of context, I would note that Magic Power is probably one of the most influential treasures in the entire Library. How many other treasures can be said to affect 22, or even 12 others? Particularly when, given the combat-oriented nature of many threads, these affected treasures are likely to be chosen due to their offensive properties? With over 400 treasures, pretty much any attempt to group them is going to be a small representation unless you use extremely broad categories.

Eev summed up the rest of my thoughts on the matter quite nicely, so I'll move on.

I'm going to play Devil's Advocate and suggest that it makes perfect sense for 2/3rds of crafts to be devoted to making lighter armour. I don't see it as catering to that purpose so much as I see folks wearing heavy armour as the outlier. I mean, even without stats or a class system, the division of treasures between P/W/C does still create a Fighter/Mage/Rogue dynamic, with each category having treasures tailored to a specific playstyle. And while I hate to generalize, since characters can straddle the lines, I think most characters are probably going to identify more strongly with one of those "classes," favouring one PWC attribute over the others. In which case, Power-oriented characters are the only I'd say are especially likely to wear heavy armour; Courage-based characters could go either way, but the Courage treasures don't really emphasize wading into the thick of things, and Wisdom-based characters are much less likely to wear heavier armour. So, 2/3rds of crafts compared to 2/3rds of PWC abilities doesn't seem so bad to me.

Fair point about weapons, though. I'm actually the opposite in that I tend to focus much more on armour than weapons. If experience has taught you that most people do otherwise, you've got me at a disadvantage.

You make a good point, but I don't think the wizard analogy is entirely accurate. My issue is that the bladesmith, who has worked with a particular material (let's say Goron Iron) before and is familiar with its properties, is treated the exact same as a beginner for the purposes of making a suit of Goron Iron. His prior, hands-on experience in shaping and forging the metal counts for absolutely nothing. Even if we assume the processes for making armour and weapons out of special materials is vastly different for each and every special material, I find it kinda jarring that an experienced bladesmith who has worked with Goron Iron before wouldn't be able to make some logical inferences about how to make armour, considering he can make a mundane suit without issue.

In your example, the wizard has flat-out never cast the Spark spell before, despite his proficiency. He might learn it easily enough, as evidenced by the lower cost. But the fact is, he has no experience with the treasure, whereas in my example, the smith does.

I'm arguing that it is both worse and will result in a lack of flavour. I concede that despite the proposed system's wide range, it can be mediated by an RPer's thematic preferences. The more pressing concern, however, is that lumping all three crafting professions together will result in a loss of distinctness and make them all feel somewhat same-y, because it's going to discourage making materials that are unique to a particular type. If Blacksmithing, Woodworking, and Tailoring all cease to exist as anything but unofficial components of a single Crafting treasure, well... I don't see how that incentivizes making Woodworking and Tailoring stand out more, and I certainly don't see how it solves the issue of them being inferior to smithing, which is one of the key motivators behind this change. At best, it deems them irrelevant and sweeps them under the rug to play second fiddle to smithing.

My problem is that really, I don't see how this new system is meaningfully different from what we have now. There's still not much of a reason to make a "Woodworker" or "Tailor" crafter beyond thematics, only now there's an arbitrary restriction on whether you focus on weapons or armour.

Personally, I don't like the idea of counterpart materials, because that's what perpetuates the issue of smithing being superior to other crafts. Note Guy's quote about how even with the exact same materials, smithing comes out on top. I specifically designed those example materials to show that you could cool and unique things with wood that you would be hard-pressed to make a metal counterpart for.

On a side note, judging by Clooby's initial reaction to the thread and that of another RPer I've spoken to since, changes to Crafting are kind of headache-inducing and, in my case at least, make me hesitant to even approach it. As a system within a system, changes to Crafting are pretty keenly felt, and unlike the Library conversion, where you could keep a deleted treasure on a wink-wink nudge-nudge basis, you have to update it to reflect any changes due to its more active role. For me, I can't help but wonder "What if they change crafting again later down the road?" It's another reason I think we could just improve upon what we've got instead of throwing it all out.

Let me get out mah rantan' stick.

I can see your viewpoint on some points you've made, but this--a lack of distinction--is something I don't even understand how someone who is knowledgeable of HC's crafts could use as an arguing point.

Just. Maybe I don't understand your point of view, but...

Right now, two crafts literally make weapons and armor, and the third makes slightly different armor. How is splitting those into two crafts which make completely and functionally different items a loss of distinction? Part of why Will's suggestion appealed to me is that it creates distinction on an extremely fundamental level.

I can't even try to share material effects between Weaponsmith and Outfitter, because materials work completely different for Weapons and Armor. This is even true for Blacksmith materials which can be used for either, or Woodworker materials which can be used for either. Compare this with the current system, where giving a material to one craft is usually arbitrary and has no logical reason to be excluded from other crafts (excluding certain effects, which are in most ways only flavor difference).

As someone who has written the majority of materials--whether I submitted them or others did--there is a huge distinction between Weapon/Armor. Functionally, there is a very minor difference between Blacksmith and Woodworker, and creating a distinction between the two is unwieldy at best, and requires bending over backwards to try to make it distinct, instead of having it distinct at a fundamental level.

"Throwing it all out?" What do you think is happening, here...?

Functionally, only three things are happening:
1. Blacksmith is incorporating Woodworker
2. Blacksmith's ability to create armor is taken from it, and added to Tailor
3. Blacksmith is renamed to Weaponsmith; Tailor is renamed to Outfitter

How this affects existing characters:
1. Tailors become "Outfitters."
2. Blacksmiths and Woodworkers can choose to become "Weaponsmiths" or "Outfitters."
3. Botanists are Botanists.

That is all.

Most of the burden falls on me editing treasures in the Library. All of those treasures will have the same effects, the same costs, and even the same fields. No materials are even changing. The only way anyone else should even be affected is that they may have to choose between Weapons and Armor.

That's it. Choose between Weapons and Armor, and potentially edit one word on a crafting character. I'm sorry if this is rude, but I don't even understand how something so simple can be seen as a burden. The major inconvenience is that one character can't use a single Craft to do everything--which is something no one was ever expected to be able to do.

Alright, then. We'll talk about Blacksmith and Woodworker materials.

Woodworker effectively has 22, while Blacksmith effectively has 27--and mainly has more because Cloud has make several blacksmith materials. That is not a huge gap. The difference in power, in my opinion, between the treasures exclusive to each craft is not very significant. (Coincidentally, this has opened my eyes to how few materials actually exist...)

All of the ones you listed could easily be worked into a blacksmith material, albeit with a different name--at least as easily as Gems, Iron, and Scales have already been worked over to double as Woodworker materials. Flavor is nice, and several of those materials are cool. If flavor is your argument, though, there's literally no reason a creative Weaponsmith couldn't make a wooden weapon with the same treasures.

Alright, let's go back to those.

The effects you described could arguably be construed as...
- Oil Slick.
- Ivy's sword-whip from Soul Calibur. Which is made out of metal.
- Something that gets sticky.
- Something that gets sharp.
- Something that shoots a sharp projectile.
- Something which attracts or repels animals--neat, but its power is mostly replicated by a treasure which costs no more than 15 rupees, and is arguably more versatile.
- Stealthy landings, which is replicated by Blessed Boots, Gaia Boots, and especially the Ring of Silence--all of which are relatively cheap, and seldom used, and can do far more than be slightly more sneaky in very specific situations.

In terms of effect, none of these materials have end-result effects that both (a) should be exclusive to woodworker, and (b) are powerful enough that they couldn't be replaced by an inexpensive treasure. If I added all of those right now, and didn't even add any counterparts to blacksmith, blacksmith would still in my opinion have (a) more of a benefitting audience, (b) more flavor appeal, (c) more combat potential (which is what most of your suggestions seemed to emphasize).

In terms of flavor, most treasures are intentionally vague so role-players can implement them in the most creative ways they can imagine. The more specific a treasure is, the more limiting it is. When it comes to original treasures, I heavily use phrases like "commonly" or "roughly" to emphasize that thinking outside of the box is encouraged for those who wish to do it. Even a canonical treasure, like Power Beam, reads, "the beam varies widely in appearance" just to emphasize this--it could even be a dragon's fang or illusory fist flying out of your axe. What ultimately matters from the standpoint of library design is the end effect. That's what determines cost, fields, and whether or not it should be added to the library.

As for 12... I'm not going to count these all out, but all of the following I would think come close: Summon Power, any of the Enchantments, Specialty (to include Dark Affinity and Mask Collector), Life, Hero's Legacy and its 11 other variants, numerous price-or-PWC affecting treasures, and of course Crafting itself.

Blizzard, Din's Burst, Electric Trap, Fire Glyph, Melee Magic, Wall of Hazards, and Thunder are all Wisdom-based elemental offensive spells which do not have time restrictions affected by Magic Power. Just saying. You're really kinda playing up Magic Power far more than its worth, if you're saying it justified an entire crafting field--or more accurately, justified not condensing two similar crafting fields--all by itself.

The average character has one set of armor or clothing--a rare few have multiple, but a rare few have none.

The average character has more than one weapon, especially if we count shields. This isn't even counting the emphasis on weapons. (A character is much more likely to focus on weapons, too)--but for this example we'll say the average character also has one weapon.

Assuming your spread of Warrior/Mage/Rogue is accurate...
- In your example, Blacksmith appeals to practically 3/3 weapons, and 1/3 armor. Almost everyone has a metal weapon, 1/3rd have metal armor, and metal shields are more common than wooden ones.
- In your example, Woodworker appeals to 1/3 weapons at most, and 0/3 armor at most. Wooden shields and weapons are uncommon. Wooden armor is practically non-existent, even among mage and rogue types.
- In your example, Tailor appeals to 0/3 weapons, and 2/3 armor.

In this scenario based on your spread, Blacksmith has 4, Woodworker has 1, and Tailor has 2. Blacksmith has more appeal than both of the others combined. This is far from 2/3rds of crafts appealing to 2/3rds of characters.

This isn't even considering the fact that more emphasis on weapons pushes that advantage even more. This isn't even considering that characters who have metal armor focus on that armor are likely to emphasize its use, much more so than characters like merchants and mages who are less likely to focus on the practicality of their attire. I would think the appeal of blacksmithing is closer to double that of the other two combined. I say this as someone who mostly has unarmored characters, and who has graded dozens of other characters.

The point you made not only seems completely wrong to me, but actually hurts the original intent you had in pointing it out...

This point keeps being brought up: The emphasis on using familiar materials. The emphasis on realism.

In the current system, a sufficiently skilled Blacksmith is able to make a suit of armor from seeds, crystals, cloth, mushroom spores, magic fish scales, and ghost fire. This is only out of 22 different materials (which is far less than there should be for any craft, imo).

If the first sentence here is true, I don't know why you're arguing against this, then. As I stated above, it is not only unjustifiable to make counterpart materials for Weaponsmith/Outfitter, but literally impossible.

And I pretty much already explained how at least five of the seven them could rather easily have a blacksmith counterpart. Consider again that things like phantasmal flame and silver scales are already blacksmith materials.

Let me explain what I believe are five good reasons this system is meaningfully different...
1. Any Outfitter/Armorer will have more materials with less effort, because materials won't be split arbitrarily between three overlapping crafts.
2. There can't be duplicate-effect materials.
3. Outfitter and Weaponsmith are functionally different, making characters with different crafts fundamentally distinct in what they can craft. Woodworker and Blacksmith both make functionally the same thing, which are only distinct by arbitrary and artificial means.
4. It allows more creative freedom. Woodworkers have extremely specific uses, but an Outfitter can make clothing of many kinds, armor of many kinds, jewelry, and accessories--and can actively choose to focus on wood gear if they so desire, especially considering all materials will be able to imbued into wooden armor. (Even in the current system, you can shove Glow Iron into wooden armor, and Lightning Weave Clothe into chainmail, because logic.)
5. Since no one character will be able to make everything they need, it will encourage interaction and trade between characters. Any reason characters have a good, but not mandatory, reason to interact is fundamentally a good thing on a role-play site that is boring without character interaction.

I feel these reasons are better than the following, which I believe are the fundamental arguments against this.
1. "I want to be able to make everything my character needs, without needing to get twice as many levels to do it."
2. Imposed Flavor > Independent Creativity
3. Half the crafts specifically appeal to a certain character types, so they are justified in not being combined into more meaningful crafts that appeal to all characters.
4. "Realism"...?
5. Change is bad. / Having to choose between weapons or armor gives me headaches.

...

... 'n' stuff.

Let me get out my ranting sword, because it's metal and therefore better

What I think is happening is a bit of an overreaction to a mistake on my part. I should have worded it as "making a new system." My apologies.

Right off the bat, I wouldn't count any PWC/Price-affecting treasures, because as far as I know, they don't offer any sort of in-universe effect. I'll give you Summon Power, Crafting, and maybe some Specialties, but even so, that doesn't really disprove the fact that Magic Power is one of a select few highly influential treasures, as well as one of the more generally applicable ones to boot.

Of the spells you listed, only Din's Burst and possibly Blizzard really support your argument in the context of the original premise. Thunder is an expensive Major treasure that can only be cast once a minute without seriously harming yourself, Fire Glyph and Electric Trap are more pre-battle spells that aren't particularly well-suited for the middle of combat, Wall of Hazards is a defensive spell that is pretty awkward to use offensively, Melee Magic and Blizzard both require you to get pretty close to your opponent... Remember, we're talking about a squishy wizard who doesn't want to wear heavy armour.

Sure, maybe on its own, Magic Power isn't enough to justify two crafting fields, but it contributes to their purpose, and it's not the only argument I had.

I feel like you're grasping, here. This is a false equivalence. I can accept armour being made out of unconventional materials because HC takes place in a fantasy realm. These materials have all been established in-universe by the Library. Insisting that an Outfitter's prior experience with a material means nothing when he's making a blade, despite the fact he makes mundane blades as part of his work, however, is pretty sketchy. I don't see what's so hard to understand about the fact that two closely-related skillsets should logically be able to draw on each other. That's just a natural fact of life. You've already conceded the point of realism to me earlier, and unless you want to revisit that premise, I don't think you're going to make any headway arguing it.

Oh, boy. Well, first off, I did ultimately concede weapons to you. But if you want to argue weapons, I'll oblige, since I take issue with your scale. For me, it would be more like:

Metal: Weapons: 2.5/3, Armour: 1/3

Metal weapons might be prevalent, but I'd hesitate to say that they'd be especially common among Mages, who I think would be more likely to be wielding a wooden staff or something, myself. Even if they do have a metal weapon, I'm not really sure they'd be terribly likely to take it to the smith. I'd give it a half point. Heavy armour we agree on.

Wooden: Weapons: 3/3, Armour: 0/3

Aside from my point about mages above, bows would like a word with you. You can argue about how niche they are all you want, but you yourself said that most characters carry multiple weapons. Given that bows are common, practically appeal to a lot of concepts (particularly Power-based and Courage-based ones), and are in general pretty darn useful in-universe, I fail to see how they wouldn't be a popular choice for an adventurer. This is in addition to other wooden weapons, like slingshots and spears. In light of that, I think I can at least say that your claim that wooden weapons are "at most" 1/3 is just a tad cavalier. I also think that while wooden shields might not be as common, they aren't necessarily uncommon. Agreed about wooden armour, though.

Tailoring Stuff: Weapons: 0/3, Armour: 3/3

Things like cloth and leather armour can logically appeal to all 3 concepts, really. It's a mistake to exclude warrior-types from the equation here, considering there's nothing inherently "counter-concept" about lightly-armoured warrior, as you yourself can attest. Lightly-armoured berserkers and flashy swordsmen are both fairly stock examples of a Power-character who would benefit from Tailor armour. Some of the Power treasures, like Rage, support such playstyles. This is what I meant by heavy armour being an outlier; it's not necessarily dominant in its own sphere.

So, in total, metal has 3.5, wood has 3, tailoring has 3. Hm. Look at that.

I'm not particularly persuaded by the claim that characters who wear metal armour are more likely to emphasize it, either. To me, that reeks of confirmation bias, because it's more readily observable. Yeah, a character could have his metal armour save his life in a thread. But a lightly-armoured character could dodge a fatal blow and dance around his opponent, with the implication that he does so because of his armour.

This is all discounting setting-specific themes where certain cultures, particularly tribal or "nature-based" ones like Dekus, Moblins, Lizalfos, Kokiri, and their ilk might have a preference for wooden equipment.

At this point, it's getting late, I'm tired and have posts to make, so I'm going to cut my post short and elaborate on Guy's other points later. As a sign of good faith, though, I'll respond to his conclusion before I go.

I'll give you 1 and 3, even if I personally disagree with some aspects. As for the rest...

2) I really hope I'm misunderstanding you here. Do you mean to say that Weaponsmiths and Outfitters will not have overlap between their materials? Like, any shared materials between them will have significantly different properties depending on whether or not you're a Weaponsmith or an Outfitter? Because, if so, I'm going to tell you that your claim that duplicate effects are "impossible" is so false as to be laughable. I submit Goron Iron for examination: A weapon made of Goron Iron is super-heavy, highly durable, and resistant to the elements. A suit of armour made of Goron Iron... is super-heavy, highly durable, and resistant to the elements. Sure, you can say the armour makes you resistant to the elements by virtue of you being in it, but I think it's kinda a stretch to say that's a significantly different effect. That's not even the only example I can think of, either. Memory Metal and Mirror Silver come to mind. Now, I'm sure you can make materials that only really fit into one category, like leather and cloth, but I think that after a certain point, you're going to find it difficult to differentiate weapons and armour of the same material. Or, if you keep armour and weapon materials separate, you're going to have problems coming up with arbitrary reasons why one metal can be used for armour and not weapons, and vice versa.

4) I won't repeat the realism argument again, but I will note that if you truly plan to make all materials equally applicable to metal, wood, cloth, etc., then you've betrayed your original premise of trying to fix Woodworking and Tailoring. I mean, I don't care, I've spent the better part of this thread arguing that the two, while in need of improvement, had their niches. But one of the core parts of your argument was that Blacksmithing is innately superior to Woodworking and Tailoring, and that giving the two the same materials wouldn't be a good fix. Yet that's exactly what you've done. By your own logic, why should I create a wooden weapon of any given material when I can create a metal one that's "better," aside from thematic reasons? What's more, if you go through with this, then there's really no hope of Woodworking or Tailoring getting better, because any materials they get, Blacksmithing will also get. That's what I mean when I say there will be a lack of distinction.

5) Personally, I think that while more interaction is nice, expecting crafting to make a large contribution is a pretty lofty goal. I mean, even without crafting, PCs are pretty self-sufficient. Heck, one of my counter-arguments against your analysis of my Woodworking materials was that the effects of plenty of materials can be replicated by other treasures. An Enchantment with the appropriate Specialty is more efficient than elemental gems, Mirror Silver can be replaced by a Mirror Shield, the list goes on.

1) The accusations of powergaming come fast and furious, I see. See my above point about self-sufficiency already existing by nature of being a PC. Also no, I want to be able to make things my character should logically be able to make without having to spend extra money like a beginner. Like, I agree that Blacksmiths have the edge over the other two professions, but are they really that unbalanced? Are they actively ruining people's enjoyment? Did they insult someone's mother?

2) I actually completely agree with your idea of not dictating the forms treasures take, but in the case of crafting materials, I'd say it's part-and-parcel to what they are. I mean, we have to have some idea of what they can and can't do, as well as what they are in-universe.

3) 2/3rds of the crafts have a defined niche that could be developed into something unique.

4) Realism.

5) Nah, having to deal with cheeky administrators gives me headaches

Changing two aspects of an existing system is totally making a new system. Yes. Glad you got my point.

You're right, Magic Power does contribute to their purpose. So does a single drop of water to filling a bucket.

Yup, I completely disagree with your scores. Just like you completely disagree with mine. What a valuable use of time and effort for both of us.

1. K.
2. Yes, because an indestructible weapon and an indestructible suit of armor have the exact same purpose. Insofar as arbitrary reasons, allow me to copy-paste half of what you said to support making ultimately arbitrary separations for Metal/Wood/Cloth.
3. K.
4. Uh, what? I kind of get the impression you completely missed what I was saying, and went off on an unrelated tangent...? Maybe I'm just dumb and didn't make the connection, I dunno.
5. I am nothing if not one of lofty goals. See treasures; see the Library; see spending hundreds of dollars to keep this place alive for no justifiable reason.

1. Bruh, I wasn't accusing you of powergaming. Hell, that's why I would want them not to split.
2. Neat.
3. Lolk, you go develop that. Have fun.
4. Lolk.
5. Haha! I like how the one who designed this system, spends hundreds of hours to try to improve it, and spends hundreds of dollars trying to improve it is the one who's being "insolent." It's hilarious. I love it. Cracking up so hard. My lungs are exploding with riotous laughter.

*shrugs* I tried. I feel like the same points are being thrown back and forth now and no one cares. I'm also getting tired of us basically blatantly disagreeing with 80% of each others' posts. I'm out of juice, in case my 90% reduction in post length didn't make it obvious.

I guess one person won't get what they want. Everyone else I've approached on the subject seems either supportive or indifferent, so I guess it's happening? Probably? It's kind of disheartening, though, feeling like someone hates me for trying to improve the system I made...?